Little Update

[Childofmine]

Oh lil I am so sorry. How many days on the job? Two or three?

Let it play out. See what happens. He is just doing what he does and he won't change until he is strongly motivated to change.

The folks he is living with won't put up with it for long.

Change is long and hard and messy. It is one step forward and five back. Let him play this one out. It will be good for him.

I am still sorry. I know it is exhausting. So glad the other phone rang. Oh looky there, someone's at the door, gotta go. been there done that.

 

[Lil]

So I took a walk and came back to find texts all about how the people only got a little bit of junk food which they will have all eaten in a day or two and she forgot to get him cigarettes (I assume the girl). I responded, "I'm sorry, but you know I can't do anything about it. So I'm sorry this is going on, but you are going to have to deal with these things. All I can do is tell you your insurance is good and I hope it works out."

His response? "I doubt it."

I didn't respond and I'm turning off my phone. Put my office phone on "do not disturb".

I HATE this! If he'd done ONE THING RIGHT he wouldn't be in this position. If he'd just behaved at the grandparents, if he'd never gone and taken care of his community service, if he'd kept his job here, if he'd done ANYTHING other than he did!

But NO - he is ruining his own life and he has to make me miserable in the process!

 

[Copabanana]

But NO - he is ruining his own life and he has to make me miserable in the process!

Lil, that is the point, that you suffer.

He is going for the jugular here. He will not stop until blood gushes. From you. Turn off the phone.

He believes that if he can get you to bleed, you will do something to make him feel better. Until that link is broken, he will keep trying to evoke a pain response in you.

He does it because it is a habit. He also does it because it is easier to make you do something for him, than he do it himself.

At this point I think anything you do for him (anything) will just reinforce the link. Let me put it another way: there is not one thing you can do for him (work clothes, nail clippers, anything) that will not reinforce in him the belief that if he shows you that he is in distress or need....you will get him out of it....if he causes you to hurt bad enough.

This link needs to be extinguished in his brain. It will only be extinguished if you do nothing. NOTHING.

The worst is intermittent reinforcement. That is, sometimes, and unpredictably providing the desired reward. Doing that is interpreted by the brain as a reward...and they learn that even if there is not an immediate reward...if they keep it up long enough, eventually one will be forthcoming. It is the worst thing you can do to extinguish a behavior in somebody else.

 

[AppleCori]

What is going on in their brains?

Our Difficult Child has had a habit of doing this self-sabotaging for many years.

There has to be some reason, but I don't know what it would be.

Sorry you are having to deal with this.

Apple

 

[AppleCori]

That could be it, Copa.

They just want someone else to do the hard work of living for them.

 

[Copabanana]

If he'd done ONE THING RIGHT he wouldn't be in this position. If he'd just behaved at the grandparents, if he'd never gone and taken care of his community service, if he'd kept his job here, if he'd done ANYTHING other than he did!

Lil, he does not feel the need for either self control or to do anything.

That is because he feels on some level that you will do it, or make bad consequences go away.

He has to learn that this is a mistaken belief. The only way he will come to stop the behavior is if it no longer works. He will know it does not work anymore, because it fails to engender the desired response from you.

 

[Lil]

This link needs to be extinguished in his brain. It will only be extinguished if you do nothing. NOTHING.

It's so easy to type those words. I've said versions of them to many people on this board, including you probably.

So different to actually be the one doing nothing.

And I don't WANT to do anything. What I WANT is to tell him off. What I want is to tell him: YOU'VE DONE THIS TO YOURSELF. OVER AND OVER. YOU were the one that stole. YOU were the one who wouldn't keep a job. YOU were the one that refused to do community service and ran away. YOU were the one that decided to take up with your on-line girlfriend who we SAID was a bad idea. YOU DID THIS! I don't believe your back was hurt bad enough to say anything at work. I believe you've done this because you are LAZY and you want the world to take care of you. DEAL WITH YOUR OWN PROBLEMS. I only want to hear from you if #1 - things are going well or #2 you are literally in the hospital under medical care for a serious illness. Otherwise DEAL WITH YOUR OWN MESSES! I'm TIRED of it. YOU'RE 20 YEARS OLD! GET A FREAKING LIFE AND LEAVE ME ALONE UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO HAVE A NORMAL, NON-DRAMATIC RELATIONSHIP WITH US!

That's what I WANT to say. But it would do nothing. So I never will.

 

[AppleCori]

I think giving some help to our very young adult kids (18-22) is not always wrong, though.

They do get to make mistakes, just like we all have.

Have a good weekend, Lil.

Do something for yourselves.

 

[Lil]

When he left, I told him that if he ever wanted to come back, I expect he'd have very little in terms of jail time, maybe weeks, maybe nothing, and that if he chose to come back and stand up in court to face the music he could and I'd be there to support that choice. Short of that, he was on his own.

So he's on his own. I just can't take this stress anymore. I really, really can't. I'm THISCLOSE to starting smoking again...or drinking heavily...or just losing my mind and running away myself! I really can't take these calls and texts and complaints. I just can't.

 

[InsaneCdn]

But NO - he is ruining his own life and he has to make me miserable in the process!

You have no control over the first half - he is running his own life, and the outcome is not in your control.

BUT. He does not have the ability to MAKE you miserable. He is trying. You do not HAVE to BE miserable because of it.

I never said it was easy, mind you.

 

[Copabanana]

It's so easy to type those words. I've said versions of them to many people on this board, including you probably.

What I wrote are tenets in behavioral psychology, demonstrated across species, to underlie human behavior. There is one way to extinguish a undesired behavior. To stop its reward.

No, Lil. It is not easy for me to type these words.

I no longer have hope that doing or not doing anything will help my son, or secure any result. I recognize that I do not have the right to want anything for my son, even a relationship or an improved relationship.

I did not send those words to you Lil to act superior, or knowing, or any other thing. Actually, I know very little as a person and as a mother.

The last thing I meant was to cause you pain. Perhaps, that is one of the dangers of this site. That to master our own pain we unknowingly cause hurt to others. I am sorry, Lil.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, I know what you want to say. I get it. And I get that it will do no good.

I have learned (later in life (cough) that it is best to "speak softly and carry a big stick" Teddy Roosevelt, I believe.

You can say whatever you want to say because it's a free country and it's your right if your son calls you looking for money. But there is one thing you can say, short and sweet, that is just as effective.

"No" is a complete sentence.

I am baffled as to why your son is so resistant to working. Honestly, and I don't mean this in a bad way, I am totally thrown for a loop by this and wish I had good advice for you or good insi9ght, but I don't.

I am sorry you are hurt again. You so don't deserve it. You and Jabber and the whole family really have all been there for him...he is really blessed to have such a loving family.

 

[pasajes4]

The sheer frustration of dealing with grown 2 year olds gets old real fast.

 

[Lil]

No, Lil. It is not easy for me to type these words.

I no longer have hope that doing or not doing anything will help my son, or secure any result. I recognize that I do not have the right to want anything for my son, even a relationship or an improved relationship.

I did not send those words to you Lil to act superior, or knowing, or any other thing. Actually, I know very little as a person and as a mother.

The last thing I meant was to cause you pain. Perhaps, that is one of the dangers of this site. That to master our own pain we unknowingly cause hurt to others. I am sorry, Lil.

Oh my dear, DEAR Copa! I did NOT mean it that way! You have every right to want EVERYTHING for your son! We ALL do! And I never, ever thought you were acting superior!

I meant just what I said, that it's so much easier said than done, as I'VE said those same things to SO many people. Yet when it's ME and my son...I find it SO very hard to actually practice what I preach.

Please, please forgive me if I hurt your feelings! I did not intend to in any way!

 

[Lil]

I'm sorry for my ranting everyone. I should know to expect it by now. As pasajes said, it's just so FRUSTRATING! I think that's exactly the right word for it. There's just no reason for him to always choose the wrong road; always make it harder than it needs to be.

I am baffled as to why your son is so resistant to working.

You and me both, my friend. He just wasn't raised watching people sit home and draw welfare. (No offense to anyone who does...I'm sure if anyone here has any form of assistance they have a valid reason for not working - but he doesn't!)

I worked from the time he turned 2 months old. Jabber has worked two jobs at time during our marriage. He and I both have back problems. While my job is sedentary...I'd have to literally be in such bad shape I was drugged to the gills to not go to work! And I went to college seven years to be able to have this job - which he knows! I'll never understand his lack of desire to earn money.

 

[Copabanana]

Oh my dear, DEAR Copa! I did NOT mean it that way! You have every right to want EVERYTHING for your son! We ALL do!

But see, Lil, it is our want that gets us in trouble. As long we want things for them and from them, it can never work out. That becomes the hook for them to engage and manipulate. It also can turn into disrespect, resentment and hatred. Because they do not see that they do it. They believe it is us.

My son is 6 years older than yours. I have seen it happen.

I cannot want anything for my son. I cannot even want him to live. That is for him to want for himself. I have to let go. I am.

Don't worry, Lil. I was not hurt.

Believe me, I understand to the depths of my heart how you hurt. I do not want it to continue.

 

[Lil]

I cannot even want him to live. That is for him to want for himself. I have to let go. I am.

I think you can want...but you have to want it in a more abstract way. I guess it's like: I want peace in the Middle East, I want to end world hunger, I want to win the lottery, and I want my son to have a good, productive, long life.

It's human nature to want. We wouldn't be loving mother's and father's if we didn't want good things for our children. What we can't do is make our lives and happiness contingent on those things happening.

See how good I am at saying it?

I haven't seen an update lately Copa...did I miss it? I know he was doing the "natural remedy" thing. Has he gotten worse?

 

[Copabanana]

I know he was doing the "natural remedy" thing. Has he gotten worse?

I came to the conclusion that he does not want treatment. He does not want his blood monitored. He does not appear to want antivirals. I was forced to accept that if he was offered a cure, he might not accept that.

There are cures of Hep B on the horizon. I made the mistake of mentioning that one involves combining a cancer medication with an antiviral. He said he would not accept a cancer drug.

You are right, I could want him to live in an abstract sense, like world peace. But I cannot want to do anything to get him to live. Sadly, any wanting in me, translates into something ugly and desperate. It has made our relationship intolerable for each of us.

It actually feels like my death. But I think I may be grieving my son's death in a way.

If he does not seek or accept treatment, I must accept that he may die before I do. It may be soon. He has been infected since birth.

 

[BusynMember]

Copa, a person can live a long, healthy life being a hepatitis B carrier. I'm sure you know that. Is it that your son is worse than just a carrier? I know Goneboy has not been sick at all and he is a carrier from birth...I'm so sorry you are unable to help your son. It is so hard to watch them self-destruct.

 

[Copabanana]

Copa, a person can live a long, healthy life being a hepatitis B carrier.

SWOT, he is actively infected. Not just a carrier.