The truth comes out...maybe

[Scent of Cedar *]

Hell, if Ihad use of the car or some pocket cash, I could go and find someone to hang with or something to do, but that isn't the case because almost everything
nowadays requires some form of payment

This is unbelievable, Lil.

So...were there times when he was a child when money bought him access to some quality-of-life thing you felt he needed?

I just want anyone at all to see my point, because
noboby seems to be understanding me.

This tells me you have placed a high priority on understanding your son, on communication at whatever level it took to get through to him, at some point in the past.

Here is a story: Prior to what happened to difficult child daughter, during the time when we still thought everything was going to be fine, difficult child daughter was spending our money quite handily, and wanted husband to cover car repair he had already given money for. (Which money was gone. Gambled away, so we would later learn.) So, they were at the mechanic's. And difficult child daughter started crying about how ashamed husband must be of her, and how ashamed she was of herself, because her children have different fathers.

husband paid for the repair. Plus he gave her a signed, blank check for emergencies that might come up after we had gone South.

husband never saw the manipulation in it. He saw the intimacy, the time of nurturing and fathering and protecting and strengthening.

I don't feel shame at the number of fathers involved with difficult child children or at their race. Those are my grandchildren and I love them and I no longer care about any of those things in the least. Therefore, this manipulation would not have worked and has never been used with me.

But it worked with husband because, though he tries not to, he does harbor and tries to rise above those feelings.

When our difficult children hit the emotional nerve that will get them what they want, the place we respond from is a blind spot for us, I think. We find ourselves proving to ourselves that what the difficult child said about themselves is not what we believe.

And the money flows.

In difficult child daughter's defense, she did tell us she had lost the check, and to stop payment on it, when she went homeless. I think now that there was no one who would cash it for her. It was drawn on a credit union account where both we and our difficult child are all too well known.

But that is what manipulation is with a difficult child.

I could not tell you the nature of difficult child daughter's manipulations with me. They work because I can't see them.

Cedar

 

[AppleCori]

He sounds just, like my step-difficult child (and like many of the others on this board).

Ours just wants everything to be fun, not to have to work at/for anything, not worry about anything, not have responsibilities, only do just what he wants to do at any given time.

He wasn't raised this way, wasn't taught this way of thinking, wasn't role-modeled this way of living. He just thinks this way. Maybe it's a personality trait (disorder?).

It seems very hard-wired in his brain. No amount of explaining that the world doesn't work this way has gotten through.

Of course he will talk about how he wants to get his life together and what be needs to do and what be needs to stop doing but it never changes anything. He will sometimes bring up going back to school or stopping drugs and alcohol but it's not a plan. It's almost like he says stuff like this hoping that his dad will give him money or a car or a place to live free for his good intentions.

 

[Lil]

So...were there times when he was a child when money bought him access to some quality-of-life thing you felt he needed?

I'm not sure what you mean. Everything costs money and the fact is, he didn't want for anything. He had a computer in his room (an old one, no internet, just to play on) when he was like 8. He would play on it and write little stories. He had a TV in his room pretty much his whole life. He had video game systems and games. But it was never enough. Not ever. He would want a new game and they're like $60, so we'd tell him to save his allowance or wait for a special occasion like Xmas or birthday. I don't remember what his allowance was, but as a teenager I'm sure got like $40 twice a month or more. But he wouldn't do it. He'd spend his money as soon as he got it and save nothing. Then when he'd finally get it he'd complain because all the other on-line gamers got it when it first came out and now it's been months and they're all better than him and he's a noob and it's no fun.

Nothing we ever did seemed to be good enough.

He had friends who literally lived in shacks...houses that I wouldn't even consider living in. We had a nice, not fancy but middle-class nice, house in a decent neighborhood. He didn't care. His friends had no rules, larger allowances, their parent's bought gaming computers instead of paying a house-payment apparently. He wanted that. It was always "things" with him.

I truly hate money. Jabber and I have stopped playing the lottery. God forbid we be the one in 100,000,000,000 who wins (people do after all). Our son would be unbearable. We'd have to abandon him entirely in order to have any peace.

He wasn't raised this way, wasn't taught this way of thinking, wasn't role-modeled this way of living. He just thinks this way. Maybe it's a personality trait (disorder?).

I think you are right. His biodad was much like that...not really money, but the "fun" aspect.

Do you know the song, "All I Want To Do (Is Have Some Fun)" by Sheryl Crowe? That song signaled the end of my first marriage.

We are drinking beer at noon on Tuesday
In a bar that faces a giant car wash
The good people of the world are washing their cars
On their lunch break, hosing and scrubbing
As best they can in skirts in suits

They drive their shiny Dotsons and Buicks
Back to the phone company, the record store too
Well, they're nothing like Billy and me, cause

[Chorus]
All I wanna do is have some fun
I got a feeling I'm not the only one
All I wanna do is have some fun
I got a feeling I'm not the only one
All I wanna do is have some fun
Until the sun comes up over Santa Monica Boulevard
​

That song came on the radio and I looked at him and said, "That's you, isn't it? That's how you want to live your life, playing while everyone is working?" That was when I realized he was never going to be one of the "good people of the world".

Seems so wrong that he disappeared from my son's life when he was only 5, but apparently had such an influence genetically.

 

[dstc_99]

He does sound lost but he also sounds depressed. I know when I am depressed or overwhelmed I feel this way. Fortunately I have also learned that eventually things work out if you just keep moving forward. Your difficult child sounds like he wants things to work out but only if he gets to continue doing nothing. He wants a job that makes him feel comfortable. He wants money in order to be able to do what he wants. He ....He.....He.....He......

Really Lil all I heard in those emails is that he wants life to be nice and easy and not have to deal with anything uncomfortable or new. I didn't hear sympathy for you or Jabber, I heard poor pitiful me is such a useless excuse for a son that there is no further point in trying. Boo hooo hooooooo.

As for the explanations I have had to make it clear to difficult child that I don't intend to play round robin with her. I tell her I understand what you are saying but I disagree. Then I remove my self from the situation. Mommy don't play that! LOL

 

[Lil]

Really Lil all I heard in those emails is that he wants life to be nice and easy and not have to deal with anything uncomfortable or new.

Yes, I agree. And even though that was months ago and he's now been homeless and in the shelter and had no access to the nice things he's always been given...I don't really think anything has changed.

I really thought that seeing what life was like with nothing would change things.

 

[Tanya M]

Wow, reading through this reminds me so much of conversations I've had with my difficult child.

I want and need a job that I don't mind doing and/or makes use of my skill set and its upsetting knowing that even with my extensive computer literacy I can't get an email from almost anyone, which upsets me more

I never could understand my difficult child's thinking that he always felt he should have a job that would take most people years to obtain. I would try explaining to him that you have to build a work history first. He would have none of that. My difficult child has a vey high IQ, he can read a book and retain it and because of that he thinks he's an authority on everything.

I do really need you guys to really actually listen to me.
I'm not trying to make things hard, I'm not trying
to argue. I just want anyone at all to see my point, because
noboby seems to be understanding me.

Word for word, this sounds just like my difficult child. I would tell him, I am listening but I do not agree with your line of thinking to which he would reply, see you're not listening. It was dizzying.

I do hope things will turn around for him.

((HUGS)) to you!!

 

[Jabberwockey]

I think you are right. His biodad was much like that...not really money, but the "fun" aspect.

Honestly, I think for our difficult child its still only the fun aspect. Its just that SO much that he's interested in doing costs money. Well, and the fact that it costs money to get somewhere unless you're willing to walk.

Fortunately I have also learned that eventually things work out if you just keep moving forward. Your difficult child sounds like he wants things to work out but only if he gets to continue doing nothing. He wants a job that makes him feel comfortable. He wants money in order to be able to do what he wants.

The whole moving forward thing is a big issue. He has commented many times that he just wants it to go back to the way it was. In other words, back to when we gave him an allowance, access to the car, and we put gas in the tank. That's the reason we don't play the lottery as Lil said. He would expect us to fund his lifestyle because we could afford it.

 

[dstc_99]

He has commented many times that he just wants it to go back to the way it was. In other words, back to when we gave him an allowance, access to the car, and we put gas in the tank.

Man I miss those days as well! Only problem is that at 19 I had a kid and it was time to grow up. He's got it good compared to alot of people he only has to take care of himself.

 

[Jabberwockey]

He's got it good compared to alot of people he only has to take care of himself.

Just convince him of that!!

And personally, I never had those days. Oh, I had access to a car that I didn't have to pay for but I put gas in it. If I took the car and it had half a tank of gas it was returned with half a tank or I'd find myself walking!

 

[InsaneCdn]

Seems so wrong that he disappeared from my son's life when he was only 5, but apparently had such an influence genetically.

We all love to believe that nurture trumps nature.
But time and again, we are burned by that belief.

Sometimes, we can modify nature by nurture. SOMETIMES.
More often, not.

Genetics, DNA, whatever you want to call it, plays a major part in all of our kids, difficult child or not.

 

[Lil]

Genetics, DNA, whatever you want to call it, plays a major part in all of our kids, difficult child or not.

But darnit! I was such a good kid and responsible adult!!! You'd think my half of the DNA would level it out!

 

[Jabberwockey]

Honey, DNA tends to be about dominance. Look at me. Its obvious to anyone who has met us that I take after my dad. But since my dad wasn't a difficult child, I didn't have to fight the DNA so I didn't just take after my dad but learned from both parents.

 

[InsaneCdn]

But darnit! I was such a good kid and responsible adult!!! You'd think my half of the DNA would level it out!

It did.
Just think how much worse your difficult child would be if you had also been a difficult child...
NO, forget I said that. We don't want to go there!!!

 

[2much2recover]

Yes, Jabber as in dominate genes.
As bad as it seems to say anything "good" about this situation, it is at least heartening to see that you are awaking to this whole situation is about him - that maybe you are getting around to, you didn't break it and you can't fix it".
Lil, it is great to see that you are coming to the conclusion that what is wrong with him may just be his DNA. Getting your head wrapped around that is HUGE! Once you come through acceptance, you will be better able to handle a relationship with your son on your terms. Like when he wouldn't stop arguing you told him to get the eff out of your car. Once you quit fighting it there will be days where you will be able to just go get a bite without arguing or "getting involved" and others where you will indeed have to repeat the phrase "get the eff out".

I like what Cedar told you yesterday - just go to work, work your heart out until you are exhausted, then you have nothing left to give your difficult child son. You love him I am sure, effed up DNA and all. He just has to fend for himself now and you and Jabber have to be all about you and Jabber.

You are getting a handle on what has not worked, what will not work.

 

[Tanya M]

My difficult child's bio-dad dropped out the picture when he was 4 and husband and I raised him to be respectful, went to church, had a stable home life, ate dinner as a family every night, etc.... My difficult child turned out just like his bio-dad. Yes, I believe nature sometimes trumps nuture.

 

[AppleCori]

Instant gratification

There was a study done. They gave a child a marshmallow then told him/her that they could eat the marshmallow now or wait 15 minutes and if they hadn't eaten it, they would get another.

There was a big difference in the future success of the kids who could wait and the kids who couldn't/wouldn't.

My step difficult child wouldn't have even considered waiting.

 

[Albatross]

Lil, the emails from your son sound a lot like my son. He acted as if there was something terribly wrong -- with him or the whole system in general -- if he had to, say, do homework or study...or really anything he didn't feel like doing at that particular moment. It was as if he simply couldn't fathom that there would be times in his life that he would have to DO THINGS, even if he didn't feel like it.

Surely that can't be right! I know it can't, because I am not happy! And clearly you are not understanding me, because if you did I would get my way and I would be happy!

I don't know why, because he wasn't brought up like that and had no role models like that in the family. Somehow he just seemed to feel he is of a special breed, one that only does fun stuff. We used to jokingly refer to him as terminally unique.

And yeah, it is sobering to look back like that, at old emails or letters, etc. I still keep a list called "Thinking of Getting Involved? Read This First!" that I've been keeping since the first time we had to kick him out. It's scary how the same patterns repeat over and over.

 

[Lil]

As bad as it seems to say anything "good" about this situation, it is at least heartening to see that you are awaking to this whole situation is about him - that maybe you are getting around to, you didn't break it and you can't fix it".
Lil, it is great to see that you are coming to the conclusion that what is wrong with him may just be his DNA. Getting your head wrapped around that is HUGE!

It comes and goes. Today is a strong day...but of course I didn't hear from him yesterday except when I texted him about the Public Defender and which church had a food bank open. Today too. I let him know it was looking as though the lawyer was going to be too expensive and if he hadn't done it already he should go to the PD's office...I didn't want him waiting because he thinks we'll get a lawyer for him. He said okay and that's been it. So...

It's easy when I'm not hearing him tell me how he has no food and is hungry.

 

[2much2recover]

We used to jokingly refer to him as terminally unique.

Well now I just love this! (aren't each and every one of out difficult child's terminally unique?)
Anyway, I thought you said that you had home projects and were thinking about moving. If there is one piece of advice I could give you is to keep those things at the top of your list and move forward. Son calls and you are busy? Let it go to voice mail. Text saying it is an emergency? Ignore until you get to it - if not truly life or death - saying for you here, "Your failure to plan does not constitute an emergency on my part". "I am so hungry mom, really I haven't eaten in three days" - well son go get yourself something to eat at the shelter. (Text, don't talk) Talk when you want and text when you don't want to or don't emotionally feel up to talking. Trust me you will have a whole lot more to reflect back on if you text more than you talk.

Go on with your projects like you would do as if you had a "normal" child off to collage. This, with him, is going to be your new normal.

I can tell you planning something that doesn't revolve around the difficult child, especially when you have been dealing with it so hard core is really gratifying. It feels good to get back to a life YOU have left to live. He isn't going to change, you know this now, so any day you want to you can just pick up where you left off with him, without all the stress and strain and when you are more refreshed and less drained. You, like I, are lucky in that we have good husbands that back us up. Enjoy him, and enjoy each other, let difficult child simmer on the back burner for a while.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, I think "you/nobody understands me" is a very common difficult child way to explain why they do what they do. My son would say, in a surly voice, "Nobody understands me!" I'd ask him to sit down and explain himself. Well, he didn't want to explain himself. He wanted to go into our latest disagreement and why he was right and I was wrong. And if I said, "You said I didn't understand YOU. Can you explain yourself to me," he'd get all ticked off, get up and mumble, "I can't talk to you."

My son was more a "everyone picks on me" kind of guy.