The truth comes out...maybe

[Jabberwockey]

ASDers are notoriously gullible and easy to talk into doing things they may not even want to do, but they are very vulnerable, like much younger children.

Well, I wish I knew how much of this he was willingly going along with and how much he was being talked into doing because he does seem to have a problem with doing things to please other fringers. J-1 is a perfect example of this.

Sonic will probably never relate well to people at parties who are "typical" but it doesn't bother him...or me. I'm rather socially challenged myself and a room full of people "playing the game" not only doesn't appeal to me...like Sonic, I don't understand the game and don't like games.

I have no physical or psychological issues that I'm aware of and am the same way. Introvert from hell! I would much rather hang around with just a couple of good friends than be at a party. Hell, even at work people comment about how boring it must be for me since they moved me out of the office with everyone else and into a classroom by myself. I love it!

 

[BusynMember]

Well, Jabber, I'm also an introvert and do not envy extraverts or want to be one. That is separate from not knowing HOW to play the people game at parties. Some people know how but don't want to. Others have no clue about those games and myself and Sonic are in that category, Sonic more than me.Do you think your son can read body language, understand when people send non-verbal messages, understand the subtle messages people send to one another? Does he understand people? That is the question!

Testing is the closest you can get to knowing if he is willfully doing this or if something is really going on. But he has to be interested in it, agree to it, then test honestly...and it's a long test. Sonic was tested for ten hours, in two hour increments. We had to fill out a gazillion forms too. So did his school, but your son is out of school now.

Anyhow, this is just a suggestion. No biggie. He is still an adult who has to get this done on his own.

 

[wakeupcall]

That's exactly how my son is...like he just does NOT get it!!! My ex calls it immature, but I was immature and I didn't steal and lie and get in trouble with the law and neither did he.

 

[Jabberwockey]

That is separate from not knowing HOW to play the people game at parties. Some people know how but don't want to.

I'm the same way. In high school the more I tried to fit in the worse it got. Even now I'm very socially inept.

Honestly, I don't know if he can read body language or not. He doesn't understand people but I'm not sure if that's willful or not. As for the testing, we may bring it up again later but as Lil has said before, he is unlikely to willingly participate. Oh, he may do it but it will only be with the expectation of receiving a reward from us for doing it and I highly doubt he would be sincere and honest in his answers.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, Jabber, then that is on him. I wouldn't reward him for doing it. He really does have to be honest or the evaluator won't know what he's really like.

Maddening, I know. I have a stubborn kid myself, only he's even older than yours. Way older.

 

[Jabberwockey]

That's the main reason we haven't even brought the testing subject up with him yet. Without us saying a word, or even specifically saying we will give him nothing for doing this, he will expect a reward and will think that the more favorable the test results the better the reward so results will be skewed.

 

[BusynMember]

Ok. Well, then it has to be something he decides to do on his own and I can do nothing except support your exceptional efforts. Even if he is on the spectrum, he knows t hat what he is doing is wrong. Sonic knows right from wrong...that is not part of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). So, as an adult, yes, this is up to your son. He does not want to want serious help. Just like most of our difficult children (grumble, grumble, grumble)

 

[Lil]

Your son sounds innocent and rather sweet, not like a normally rebellious difficult child who tells you how much he hates you.

I have to agree with this...not so much "innocent and sweet" lol...but I read how a lot of you folks have kids that scream obscenities at you, tell you they hate you, call you horrible names, blame you for all their problems...

Mine doesn't do that.

He may not take responsibility for his actions often, but he has never said, "This is all your fault, you put me out!" Oh he does sometime mention how tough we were (which we don't agree with) and he'll say stuff like, "You don't know how hard it was being friends with ___ because of you guys." or "Well I needed money and I didn't have any." (when we cut him off), but that's about as far as that goes.

He can drop the F-word twenty times in twenty seconds when he's mad, but he doesn't curse AT us. It's just in the sentence, you know?

The closest he's ever come to cursing AT us was one time when he and I had a fight, he said, "I don't know why you're being such a b*tch about this." After it was all said and done I told him to NEVER say that word to me again. He never has.

He has never said he hated us...not even in the worst of fights.

He's ruined his bedroom door punching holes in it....but he's never swung on one of us or threatened us in any real way. We have never felt that he would actually harm us.

He doesn't hang out with "normal" people because he doesn't know how to act normal so he hangs with the fringes. Fringe folks are the least judgmental of anyone. They excuse lack of social graces, inability to read body language, and just different type of talking, thinking and doing. It's too hard to try to understand. It's like trying to understand a foreign language.

It wouldn't bother me a bit...if they weren't druggies and criminals. Couldn't he find an honest "fringe"? smh...

 

[Jabberwockey]

Well, we have the police report. PD it is. He admitted to the officer that the reason he came to Wal-Mart was to steal DVD's. Just......wow.

 

[Hope_Floats]

Well now you know. I'm so sorry.

 

[Lil]

Yes...I now know two things for sure.

1) He's a thief.
2) He's a stupid thief.

He not only admitted that he went to Wal-mart to steal the DVD's, but that he did it because he had no money and he intended to sell the DVD's to whoever would buy them. He was the one who picked them out and handed them to the other guy, who then unwrapped them and pocketed them.

And he told the cops everything. I mean everything. They asked him if he knew the other guy was going to unwrap and steal them and he as much as told them not only yes, but that it was all his idea. The other guy told them it was a spur of the moment thing. Our son told them it was the entire reason they went there.

Does it make me a bad person that it bothers me so much that he told the cops everything? What can I say? I'm a lawyer.

Maybe I'm dwelling on that because I can't quite process the other. I truly, honestly thought that we'd find he was the lookout...that it was the other guy's idea. I even had this image in my mind of him looking at the guy all big-eyed and shocked. That the theft was his idea really hadn't entered my mind.

But it was and I'm not even upset. Maybe it'll hit me later, but right now I'm just ... fine. I don't know why this is so much different for me than stealing from us was. But I actually hadn't thought he'd steal from anyone else. Kind of like he just yells and screams at us. This is so far outside of my thought process that I can't even wrap my brain around it. "I had no money, so I'm going to steal stuff and sell it." That would just not even enter my mind. Ever. He should have had enough food and cigarettes. He had a roof over his head. But even if I were out of food, even if I were hungry, I would beg before I would steal.

I guess I just don't even know how to feel...so I'm not feeling anything.

I do know one thing, I'm not hiring a lawyer. I don't know if the public defender handles municipal misdemeanors...and this is in municipal court...but if they don't then so be it. I might, MIGHT, be willing to ask the prosecutor to consider probation, but at the moment I don't intend to even do that. He can take his lumps. If he gets fired, so be it. If he goes to jail...well, so be it.

Go ahead. I can make another. Arrr Matey!
(I actually can't make another...but I'll lift my skirts anyway. )

 

[InsaneCdn]

Lil...

This doesn't change anything. But... his whole spill-the-beans approach, the whole "it was all my idea" stuff... well...

If he IS an Aspie, then it makes sense. When push comes to shove, they don't know when to shut up. And if the other guy told him to say it was his idea, well, he doesn't want to lose this 'friend', so he'll take the fall. Yes, Aspie's can be that clueless. Especially at this age.

Doesn't absolve him of anything. Doesn't change the next steps. But to me, it kind of makes sense.

He's tried living by your rules, and it didn't work. So, next thing he does, he is living by another set of rules... and it isn't working either.

 

[Lil]

Well, I don't doubt it was his idea. He was seen handing the guy the DVD's in the toy department. So he went and got them and gave them to him.

I don't know. He's been a stupid thief every time. He stole things from us we were bound to notice. Heck when he pawned Jabber's guitars is a perfect example. Jabber takes a guitar lesson EVERY WEEK! There was no way he wasn't getting caught. The money too. The money jar had a chart on it showing what dates we put money in and how much there was. We couldn't NOT know what was missing.

I don't know. I just don't know what to think. At some point, we're going to have to tell him what we know...and that he's on his own.

I just looked it up and our state PD's office does not handle municipal cases...so if it stays there, he has no lawyer.

 

[BusynMember]

Wow. Aspie or not, he isn't allowed to break the law. I'm sorry, Lil.

 

[dstc_99]

Well now you have your answers. Time to process and then decide where to go from there. I have to say I would feel bad letting him go into court alone but I also wouldn't be willing to pay for a lawyer. Maybe they will go easy on him for admitting it and hopefully showing some remorse.

 

[SuZir]

I tend to have little difficult time working up moral outrage over petty crime so what actually struck me is how totally clueless your son seem to be. If he is not mentally challenged (as in very low iq) he certainly doesn't strick me as a 'normal.' Whole thought process is just so clueless.

"I don't have money to get something I want =>
I need to get money =>
I will steal something and sell it (and DVDs certainly are not the go to item of professional shoplifters) =>
I do it so badly I do get caught=>
When the police asks, I tell everything, even the things they have no way of knowing if I don't tell"

That really is something. In my neck of woods confessing would actually make sense because after that police would write you your ticket for petty theft and that would be it. If you would deny the crime you would have to go to court to get that same fine so much less inconvenience to have it right away from the police (and then you would either lay that fine or not, if not it would cause you troubles down the road, but it being way down the road any self respecting 19-year-old difficult child would not care about that.) But in your system it sounds like pure stupidity to confess in that point.

Him being this clueless (and unable not to get caught) do you think that being scared with some jail time or something like that could actually work? For most it doesn't really work because either they do not think consequences at all before they do something or they think that they will not be caught, but your kid certainly makes it sure he will be caught if nothing else.

When my Insolent Whelp was stealing (outside of home), while his reason of course was the need of money, both to finance future gambling and to pay his gambling debts to his friends, but the stupidity of it (he too made it sure he would be caught and also that the consequences would be much worse than that fine he would have gotten if he would have stolen from elsewhere) was motivated by his mental and emotional needs (need for revenge and going for it in very passive-aggresive and self destructive ways.) Point being my Whelps behaviour was not normal either and I wish we would have really understood that already then.

Motivations or abnormality of the behaviour of course doesn't make the illegal deeds okay, but they do change what kind of methods can be effective when dealing with the offender.

 

[BusynMember]

Suzir, since they cut off access to psychiatric hospitals in the U.S., in all seriousness, jail is often our psychiatric institutions. Sad, yes. Unless you are legally psychotic (don't know right from wrong) you get treated the same as everyone else. He could get off easy this time. You can not keep stealing though. No matter what is wrong with you. Not if the victim presses charges.

 

[2much2recover]

That would just not even enter my mind. Ever. He should have had enough food and cigarettes. He had a roof over his head. But even if I were out of food, even if I were hungry, I would beg before I would steal.

Don't let this be your rationalization, because you have posted before about being afraid of him going hungry is one of YOUR fears. If it was food he wanted, he could have gone to the shelter to eat, could have gone to one of the food banks on the list you gave him. He had other options but chose to steal.
I feel for you both because I don't get why he did this either. Seems like he thinks its all fun and games? I know you have said he has a hard time being happy, but I can't imagine this type of criminal behavior is what makes him happy??? So yeah I too, as just a board member am kind of WTF? about this whole situation.
Could it be in some warped way he is taunting you Lil? I am sure you have talked law with him in the course of conversation many times as he was growing up. Maybe, since you kicked him out - this is some sad pathetic way of getting even?

Maybe you both just need a break for a while, you have been through so much heavy emotional "stuff" with difficult child son, now that you know that he is going to have to pay the piper, maybe you should just withdraw yourselves from him, his life, for a while. Let him figure it out on his own. Maybe if you are no longer the "audience" he will have no options but to pull it together.

 

[pasajes4]

Your son is a clone of my son. He too went through the whole "screamo" music phase. They need money for weed and booze. They need money to go places. Mine is obsessed wit 20 dollar bills. He just wants them anyway he can get them.

 

[Albatross]

Aw, Lil and Jabber. I'm sorry to hear that but glad you have that info going in.

I don't think I would tell him that you got a copy of the police report and know what happened. It seems to me he would take that as an interest and willingness on your part to get further involved.

He could have asked for your legal advice and help when he got arrested, or when he was putting bail together. He chose not to.