The truth comes out...maybe

[pasajes4]

How did he not have money when he stole the dvds but did have bail money? Something does not compute.

 

[Lil]

Don't let this be your rationalization, because you have posted before about being afraid of him going hungry is one of YOUR fears. If it was food he wanted, he could have gone to the shelter to eat, could have gone to one of the food banks on the list you gave him. He had other options but chose to steal.

I don't know what you mean by rationalization. I said if I were hungry. I also said he had food and smokes. He wasn't hungry. He might have run out of cigarettes. He might have wanted pot. He might have just been bored and wanted to watch DVD's (the report didn't say Blue-Ray) so I don't know. So...no rationalization. My point is I can think of no circumstances I would ever steal.

He knows that. He's seen us literally call the store or go back to the store when we discover an item...as small as paper towels or a carton of soda...that they missed ringing up.

I don't think I would tell him that you got a copy of the police report and know what happened. It seems to me he would take that as an interest and willingness on your part to get further involved.

Even if we tell him the fact that he's guilty is the reason we're unwilling to help?

I don't know yet. I might go to court. I might not.

The fact is, I'm actually ashamed. I'm ashamed to be his mother right now. The thought of walking into court with him, having other people that might know me...hell...total strangers, know this is my son? Whether municipal or circuit court, I don't know the prosecutors, but I do know the judges. That's worse.

If I knew the prosecutors, I could ask for probation just this once. Can't do that with a judge.

How did he not have money when he stole the dvds but did have bail money? Something does not compute.

Well, it was the 6th and he was expecting a check on the 9th. He said he gave his entire check to the bondsman...so I expect that what happened was the bondsman took a promissory note and probably charged more than the usual 10%. It wouldn't have been very high bail. If he hadn't paid, the bondsman would have simply grabbed him and taken him back to jail. They can do that.

***

Oh...and it occurred to me that he apparently thought he was fired on Monday the 5th and got arrested Tuesday the 6th. I do know he was not stuck in jail, because the 6th was the day he told me he got fired.

 

[Albatross]

Even if we tell him the fact that he's guilty is the reason we're unwilling to help?

Yes, that's a tough one. Might be, if you feel like you owe him an explanation why you are unwilling to help, other than what you knew before you read the police report.

Or it might be better to just let him wonder if you guys have eyes in the back of your head or psychic powers or something, because (based on my prior experience) it just opens things up to more discussion.

"Why did you tell us you were going to plead not guilty when you had already told the police you had done it?"

"I was scared of the police/the guy I was with made me take the blame/I was hungry and not thinking clearly/I thought I was fired and was trying to come up with money for rent so you wouldn't be disappointed" etc, or whatever he would/could say to get you involved again?

I don't know...but I know my son would find something. He's good at it.

But I truly don't know, Lil. Just musing on my part. I'm so sorry you guys are going through this. I know that feeling so well of being ashamed, and to have it with people you see professionally on a regular basis really sucks. You guys deserve better.

 

[Lil]

to have it with people you see professionally on a regular basis really sucks

Not completely true, because I don't go to court. But any attorney there might appear before me. I'm the administrative hearings judge. Yeah...that's fun. It's one of the reasons I hate the thought of going.

 

[2much2recover]

Ah yes shame the gift that the difficult child keeps on giving. Yes, it IS shameful what our children do and that shame is another emotional place they have to kick us. I can probably say it until I am blue but you two have nothing to be ashamed of. I also believe that these shameful acts steals the dignity we have in society, if we let them. I am not so sure this arrest doesn't have more to do with kicking you back for kicking him out. I say this because in your posts you threatened so many times to have him arrested and then you didn't (I agree with why you chose not to)
I don't know, all of what he is doing is so hard to understand.
I would say that maybe you could benefit from a therapist of your own to help you to come to terms with everything he has put you through. Neither of you deserve what has happened and I think you deserve to find some happiness in your life, which I think quite frankly, until you have some professional explanation, or at least how to accept that which your son has become, you will not find. Nor will you find any peace of mind.
I do, however hope that you get through all of this as painlessly as possible, and I really don't think anyone probably is going to judge you harsher than you will. Other people do get the fact that nice people have kids who do rotten things - give your fellow humans more credit.

 

[2much2recover]

Sorry, Lill, used wrong word I.e. Rationalization, I meant one of your biggest fears was that he would be hungry/cold ( nothing wrong with having those worries either!). I may screw up HOW I say things but only mean to help...not hurt at all.

 

[Lil]

I would say that maybe you could benefit from a therapist of your own to help you to come to terms with everything he has put you through.

We've been discussing this. I suspect that's in the near future.

I may screw up HOW I say things but only mean to help...not hurt at all.

I know that. I just didn't understand what you meant.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Could it be in some warped way he is taunting you Lil? I am sure you have talked law with him in the course of conversation many times as he was growing up. Maybe, since you kicked him out - this is some sad pathetic way of getting even?

If, and I do mean if, this is the case then it's probably directed much more at me that Lil. I've always been the disciplinarian and he knows for a fact that on several occasions his punishment would have been much more severe if not for Lil's intervention. I don't believe this is the case though. This was the day after he got fired and he was broke and probably wanted (note, NOT needed as he would think) cigarettes or pot.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil...you must have to be tough to be a lawyer. Even if you know somebody who sees your son in court, big whoppin' deal. You think they have no problems in their lives? None of them possibly have kids with issues?

I've learned that I don't know a lot more about the lives of other people than I do know and that if people who live in glass houses want to throw stones, why should I care?

This isn't anything you did. Your son did it and he is not you and you are not him.

It's kind of like everyone knew that the psychiatrist I worked for at that medical answering service had two mentally ill kids...one in a hospital for over a year for anorexia, depression and cutting and one son who I believe was on drugs. Everyone knew about it. Yet he went on in his profession and was still respected. I have to believe intelligent people know that these things happen. And those who don't know that...they will learn one day. Few people never have to deal with a difficult child in their family.

Hugs!!!!

 

[Lil]

It's different to be tough about something that doesn't personally effect you.

But you're right, I'd survive.

Worse though is something I just thought of a bit ago; I could make it worse. The judge, who I do know professionally, could ask why he did it, why he was broke when he has a job and clearly has a parent who cares since I'm sitting right next to him...and could ask why he doesn't live at home. I won't lie. Won't let him lie.

I don't know...I don't have to have my mind made up until Feb 11th I guess, and I don't think I'll think about it any more tonight if I can help it. All gussied up and going out with Jabber to meet some friends for dinner and drinks.

Cheers!

 

[BusynMember]

Ok, Lil! Let your hair down, girlfriend, and encourage Jabber to live it up too!!!!! I hope you have lots and lots of FUN!

 

[Tanya M]

Maybe I'm dwelling on that because I can't quite process the other. I truly, honestly thought that we'd find he was the lookout...that it was the other guy's idea. I even had this image in my mind of him looking at the guy all big-eyed and shocked. That the theft was his idea really hadn't entered my mind.

Lil, it is such an awful place to be when you come to realize your child is capable of things you never thought possible. I remember it all to well with my son, going through the motions of thinking there is no way he did these things then accepting the fact that he did.

As parents we teach our children right from wrong, they do know the difference, I just think when they are young (15 - 25ish) they truly believe that all we warned them about won't happen to them, that they are somehow immune.

The many times my difficult child was arrested we never got a lawyer for him. In hind sight I know it was the right decision as it would have just been another huge waste of money. He's 33 and still doesn't get it. April last year he got arrested again for theft ($5000), he sent me a letter from jail and complained that while he was locked up he was sure that someone would find his camp and steal all his stuff. At the time he was living in a tent in the mountains of CO. While he knows it's wrong to steal he did it anyway then complained that the same thing might be done to him. Mind boggling!!

I am just grateful that I am at point that I am able to just let it go. I truly believe you will also get to that point. It's like using a shovel, you start out getting some very painful blisters after using it for a short time, but over time you build up a callous and you are able to use the shovel for longer periods of time. Right now your emotions are raw like the blisters.

Go ahead. I can make another. Arrr Matey!
(I actually can't make another...but I'll lift my skirts anyway. )

I'm happy that you have your sense of humor!!

 

[pasajes4]

The judge will not ask you those questions. He won't ask difficult child why he did it. The judge will more than likely not give a rat's @$$ why he did it.

 

[Jabberwockey]

While he knows it's wrong to steal he did it anyway then complained that the same thing might be done to him. Mind boggling!!

Our son complained about this while he was in they shelter. Lil kind of went off on him when he said this.

The judge will not ask you those questions. He won't ask difficult child why he did it. The judge will more than likely not give a rat's @$$ why he did it.

The judge knows Lil and they didnt exactly get along. He might.

 

[Lil]

While he knows it's wrong to steal he did it anyway then complained that the same thing might be done to him. Mind boggling!!

Oh yes...ours had already said he would never be roommates with anyone from the shelter because he couldn't trust them not to steal his stuff.

After all the stuff and money he stole from us.

Unbelievable.

The judge will not ask you those questions. He won't ask difficult child why he did it. The judge will more than likely not give a rat's @$$ why he did it.

Actually he might. I've certainly heard them ask such questions if they do an open plea. For that matter, even with a plea bargain I've heard judges ask them to recount the crime in their own words and ask their motive. It does happen. Now, likely it wouldn't. But it could.

 

[Lil]

The judge knows Lil and they didnt exactly get along. He might.

It's not that we didn't get along...I knew him when I was in private practice 20 years ago, and I've actually had him appear in front of me as a hearing officer. I kind of thought he was an idiot; not exactly the best lawyer around. When people have asked me for recommendations, I'd tell them pretty much that. Now he's a judge. Go figure.

 

[pasajes4]

I know that you want to support your son emotionally as he faces the consequences of his actions, but if your past relationship with this judge will have a negative impact on the outcome perhaps you should not go.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

He has
always seemed to feel entitled. It's as though we
are responsible for making him happy.

This post rambles around. The conclusion has to do with happiness and the senses of gratitude and trust.

How does your son feel about his life, Lil? Is he appreciative of the things he does have? That is a major difference between difficult child daughter and difficult child son, now that I think about it. difficult child daughter has a deep and abiding sense of gratitude. Even when she cannot reach it, she reaches for it. difficult child son is angry alot, feels the world is unfair alot.

Is that a cocaine or some other drug kind of side-effect, I wonder?

(Possibly...testosterone?)

That was a joke.

***

One time, husband slammed his hands down on either side of his dinner plate and roared: "You're supposed to placate me!" So, we had a conversation about how there was no way I could make him happy. That only he could make himself happy, and that it was all in the way he was looking at things. As is the way of things in marriages (mine, anyway), this was met with strenuous resistance.

:O)

Through the years, I have heard husband telling that exact thing to other people, about their own lives.

In a way, this is part of what we are all learning to do, here on the site. We are learning how to determine what it is to be happily independent, we are learning how to be who we are, whatever is going on in our lives and however different that looks than our intention was.

It's pretty complex thing to think about in a way, but it seems we are all looking at those kinds of questions.

Consumerism, people who destroy their lives when they win the lottery ~ our homeless kids, who live in trees or on farms far from the rest of us. What is it that "makes" any of us happy?

Maybe it's that the kids just aren't afraid of the same things we are, so they cannot be motivated by those things.

I do know it is very different to let them take their own consequences when they are nearing forty, like my kids, than it was when they were in their late twenties. And when they were teens and early twenties, my focus was totally on my kids. It was part of who I was.

There is no way I could have turned away from either child.

I know I'm not supposed to say that.

Cedar

But here is the thing. Given what I now think I understand about all the multi-layered complexity of everything, it may not have made a difference what I did. I wish I could have known that one little piece, years ago. I would not have spent so many years hating and questioning and berating myself and thinking some dope with a piece of paper had an answer.

It would have been okay then, to love them and set a boundary around what I did or did not want my life to look like.

I was so remorse-ridden, felt so guilty and responsible and angry at myself for what was happening. It was only in this past year or two that I began accepting the probable truth of what is happening to our daughter ~ of why it keeps happening.

I still don't like to say it.

And it doesn't matter one bit.

That is my daughter.

difficult child son's on again, off again addiction issues don't change the way I feel about him, either.

What I am saying is that if I could have let go of blaming myself, of faulting myself, of that feeling of fraudulence that came along with all of it because I hadn't been able to give to the world healthy adults, my life, and husband's life, and our marriage would have been so much...happier.

:O)

The meaning of everything really does depend on how we think of it. I literally could not think of it any other way though ~ not without this site and all of you, and the hours and hours we all have spent holding on, and working through and figuring things out.

So, for sure, gratitude is one piece of happy.

Okay. So I am going to go put that on the top of this rambling post.

Gratitude is one way to change how we see our lives, whether we are the difficult child or the difficult child parent.

Trusting that all will be well is another, but that's impossibly hard.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

The fact is, I'm actually ashamed. I'm ashamed to be his mother right now. The thought of walking into court with him, having other people that might know me...hell...total strangers, know this is my son? Whether municipal or circuit court, I don't know the prosecutors, but I do know the judges. That's worse.
If I knew the prosecutors, I could ask for probation just this once. Can't do that with a judge.

This is shame on so many levels, Lil.

I am so sorry.

It happened to me that this is where I began to hate myself. In that shame I felt over who I was and then, who I suddenly definitely was not, even and maybe, especially, to myself.

Cherish yourself now, Lil. Jabber, you too. I know I'm not supposed to say this, but men do see things differently. My husband was so alone through so much of this. Had he not determined to try every single thing he could think of to save our marriage, I would have left it because without the kids, nothing made sense. Nothing mattered. I had failed, and the marriage turned gray to me. My husband is the one who brought it back, who somehow just kept being there whenever I could stop looking at the kids and see him.

Seeking tells us to stay close to the site. MWM tells us to take what feels right and let the rest go.

Your mission, should you accept it (Mission: Impossible again) is to nurture yourself and each other through this time. I recreated my life, Lil, and it made no difference. Inside, because of the shame, because of the questions, because of the reflections from the outside world...I broke.

Dont' let that happen, to you.

Cherish your way through it.

Every single thing that is happening to you on an emotional level right now is something that can shatter you into a million pieces. And, like me and like so many of us here, you are dealing with way more things than one.

Survival.

Focus on surviving this.

I did not focus on survival. I focused on my kids and lost my life. I had no other purpose. Everything else was cast in shadow.

It is only through changing that shame thing that I have been able to begin seeing from a different place.

We are here Lil.

We have been where you are.

It will take so much courage to do the things you will have to do, next. Admire that in yourself. Brene Brown writes two things that have been invaluable to me:

1) Human beings are hard-wired for challenge.

Every one of us can do what he or she has, or chooses, to do.

2) Lean in.

Lean in to the shame, to the tears, to whatever it is as though you chose it.

There are those who believe that on some level, some spiritual level...you did.

In any event, we are right here.

Cedar

 

[pasajes4]

You are feeling the shame that he should be feeling. Sometimes, I wonder if our feeling shame for their behavior lets them off the hook.