Daughter 24 stole from me

[Devasted Mom]

I DO say hurtful things. I seem not to be able to stop myself. But I do not say them to hurt him. I seem to want to get a reaction in him, to see the person I love is still there. I also feel that it is the right thing to tell him what I believe is correct. Treating people right. Doing what is right. I believe this is my role. It has helped.
No.
I know, but it is those emotions that will help her change. Shame. Guilt. Anxiety. They are signals to her that she needs to right herself.

It would be way worse if she did not feel them.

Glad you are here. Keep posting. Try to relax and do something fun, or soothing, or diverting, whatever that might be. You are doing this.

Did she have the 2k purse with her? Oh? Is that snarky? Sorry. I guess I am envious. I want one, too.

COPA

The feelings I was having took me by surprise, that I was actually contemplating throwing some mean and hurtful stuff out there with the intention of making her feel terrible. I did everything in my power not to do that. But just that I wanted too hurt me, as you said I guess I'm trying to make sure the person who she was before this is still there. To be awkward with your own child is one of the strangest feeling I ever had. You and I share the same sense of humor! Yes she did have the 2k purse. Luckily not one bought with my money. It was a Christmas gift from the boyfriend. Yes I want one too!!! Might take hers, lolllll

 

[Devasted Mom]

This is.my opinion.

I think shaming our adult kids is not good and makes them act worse and behave badly because they feel they are bad. This was the case in my life with my own shaming mother.

I also do not feel it is beneficial to call our loved ones demeaning names for any reason. I feel one has a better chance of acting better if they feel they are good people and loved. The names I was called by mother just made me feel worse and at times I truly hated her.
I believe "less is more." Listen but say little. No shame. Shame is toxic. It can last a lifetime. If she feels shame on her own that is on her. Dont be the one to put that on her. You did well and should feel proud that you set a good example.

No I didn't do it but I sure wanted too that was a first time I actually had a feeling to make my own child hurt.

 

[Devasted Mom]

There were times when my daughter was so awful, I would say things to hurt her back. It is a natural response to want to not only defend yourself, but hurt the person hurting you. It is almost instinct. This NEVER works. As SWOT stated, you can't shame someone or guilt someone into "feeling bad" for what they did. That person has to come to those conclusions on their own through self-reflection. Sadly, some never do. Hurting my daughter only made her resent me more, added "fuel to her fire" toward me, and would be later thrown in my face and I would feel so badly for the things I had said. I have learned to keep my feelings to myself and vent them elsewhere - here, my few close friends who know the situation, my husband. When she escalates and is ugly to me, I just end the conversation - even if it means leaving, not answering texts or hanging up the phone.

As for your feelings of awkwardness, those are natural too. You have been blindsided with the reality that your child is not who you thought she was, that she is capable of things you don't understand, and that she has hurt you in a way you have never felt before. It sounds as though she is truly remorseful and making the steps in the right direction to make amends. It will take time for your awkward feelings to subside. You are going to shy away from that which hurt you. For me, it is an ebb and flow with my daughter, because she has never taken any steps to make amends or change. She has fooled me a few times, and I have tentatively welcomed her back in, awkwardly at first, felt myself soften, and then had it blow up in my face again. It gets harder and harder to let myself soften and the awkwardness subside, but even in my situation, I have times when I can feel closer to normal with my daughter. They are few and far between and I cherish them, but I have learned not to raise my hopes that "this time is the corner turned." I don't think, and sincerely hope it won't be, the case with your daughter.

Yes I guess positive actions will ease my anger and hurt. Yes it seems as if she is remorseful. For me I feel fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I do not have one ounce of trust in her right now so everything she says and does is in question to me . I hope your right and this will be the first and last time. I commend you for your strength with your daughter

 

[Devasted Mom]

Copa -

My daughter has Borderline Personality Disorder (Borderline (BPD)). No matter how I phrase it - as a rebuke, a gentle "you know better," "you have hurt me," whatever - that is not what her brain interprets. Her mind is wired to pick up on certain things and ignore others, completely misreading the intention of the message. I think, in my opinion, that whether or not someone has a mental disorder, when they are in a place of anger, denial, resentment, addiction, messages don't come across as the messenger intended and actions are things that cannot be misremembered or picked apart for hidden meanings. Sometimes I think they enjoy working us up into a frenzy, controlling our emotions by getting us upset, engaging us in circular arguments.

I am still "guiding" my daughter to show her that her choices and behaviors are not acceptable by refusing to give her attention, engage her in arguments, or let her control my emotions. I stop everything and she has no doubt that what she has said or done is not ok.

An adult child who is rational, clear and level headed could honestly listen to a parent give guidance. I think the majority of difficult adult children cannot. At least not where they are right now. The day they can is when they are in a place where we can have normal relationships with them. The relationships we have with them now require a different approach, in my opinion.

 

[Devasted Mom]

Copa -

My daughter has Borderline Personality Disorder (Borderline (BPD)). No matter how I phrase it - as a rebuke, a gentle "you know better," "you have hurt me," whatever - that is not what her brain interprets. Her mind is wired to pick up on certain things and ignore others, completely misreading the intention of the message. I think, in my opinion, that whether or not someone has a mental disorder, when they are in a place of anger, denial, resentment, addiction, messages don't come across as the messenger intended and actions are things that cannot be misremembered or picked apart for hidden meanings. Sometimes I think they enjoy working us up into a frenzy, controlling our emotions by getting us upset, engaging us in circular arguments.

I am still "guiding" my daughter to show her that her choices and behaviors are not acceptable by refusing to give her attention, engage her in arguments, or let her control my emotions. I stop everything and she has no doubt that what she has said or done is not ok.

An adult child who is rational, clear and level headed could honestly listen to a parent give guidance. I think the majority of difficult adult children cannot. At least not where they are right now. The day they can is when they are in a place where we can have normal relationships with them. The relationships we have with them now require a different approach, in my opinion.

So your daughter has a disorder that she really has no control of. So it is not truly things she is doing intentionally. Would that be correct?

 

[Copabanana]

I am still "guiding" my daughter to show her that her choices and behaviors are not acceptable by refusing to give her attention, engage her in arguments, or let her control my emotions. I stop everything and she has no doubt that what she has said or done is not ok.

I think each of us has to find a balance that works. For me, I was unable and unwilling to suppress all of me, my voice. Thank goodness that has not been what has been required in our situation.

For me as a parent, I found I had to accept my own humanity.

An adult child who is rational, clear and level headed could honestly listen to a parent give guidance

I guess guidance may not be the word I was searching for. I mean truth. I believe that for me there had to be room to tell the truth. Luckily in our case, my son is willing to hear it now. Before he was not. But I said it nonetheless.

I tell the truth about my own parenting because I believe that there are a variety of approaches that can work, depending upon the parent and the child. Not that one is better or worse. Some parents will be unable to stay silent, others can. And I think it is important to represent that sometimes I am human and imperfect. While other parents may do better, I believe I do good enough. I think there is room for variability, humanity and self-forgiveness if we do not meet an ideal.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

So your daughter has a disorder that she really has no control of. So it is not truly things she is doing intentionally. Would that be correct?

There are effective psychotherapies to treat borderline personality disorder and other personality disorders developed recently. Old school psychotherapy approaches believed these were not amenable to treatment but this has not proven to be the case.

I will say what my opinion is: I believe that almost all people potentially have control over their behavior.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

I know my adult kids (cant speak for all) do not appreciate my moral teachings and I dont do it. They have tbeir own sense of right and wrong. My moral values do not apply to all and I feel my adult children can decide these things for themselves.
Seriously, all have come to good conclusions, although some have had difficulties. I stayed out of it once they turned into adults and, without my money or housing, bart became a great dad, a homeowner, has a college salary job without college, quit drinking and benzos and does not break the law. Princess quit using drugs, went to collegr on her dime, has her own house with SO, and is a loving mother. Sonic achieved beyond all expectations. Jumper is in school for law enforcement and is a mature, hardworking young person who overcame learning disabilities.
I am pleased with the results of changing from involved mom to friend and a listening ear and one who unconditionally loves them. They figured it out without my two cents so this method may not work for all but it did for me.
Best of all, we are all kind to one another. I do give gentle advice if asked but only then.
We are all different as are our adult kids.

 

[Copabanana]

The feelings I was having took me by surprise, that I was actually contemplating throwing some mean and hurtful stuff out there with the intention of making her feel terrible. I did everything in my power not to do that. But just that I wanted too hurt me, as you said I guess I'm trying to make sure the person who she was before this is still there.

I think you are doing phenomenally well. I think both of you showed real courage in seeing each other. Imagine how ashamed she must have been. She is still the daughter you raised. All of that teaching is in her. Imagine what it took. It took real guts.

I do not think our kids turn into somebody else once they do bad things. I do not think all is lost. A wonderful thing about this site is you will find all manner of parents and families. While we learn here, essential tools, we remain the same people, parents, with all of our uniqueness. We do not have to turn ourselves into new people. Just stronger and more confident ones. What works for one parent, may not for another.

The goal is that each of us finds peace as we can, and supports our child the best we can, so that they can find peace, autonomy and function to the extent that they can. Hopefully, along the way the relationships we hoped for will be renewed. You are on your way, D. I am glad you are here with us.

COPA

 

[TheWalrus]

Yes and no, Devastated. I have had to seek my own therapy to attempt to understand the complexities and ranges of her disorder. From my own counseling and everything I have read, she does understand right from wrong. She is not someone who is incapable of understanding that her behaviors are hurtful, extreme, and dramatic. She does know the difference between right and wrong. She knows when she is manipulating, lying, etc. But she has black/white thinking. I am either all wonderful or all evil, depending on the day, the minute, the situation. She is that way with everyone, but I get the worst of her behavior. Drug abuse and a recent injury has made it much worse and her behaviors and thinking are very erratic and irrational at times. She will seize certain phrases, words, etc, "see" things in a person's tone or look that may or may not be there, can be overly paranoid, etc. To be honest, I could be more empathetic if she didn't know right from wrong.

As far as "control" it, not without serious intervention. She has to be willing to accept that it is her and not everyone else, and put in the work. There are many success stories with therapy for her disorder. It is an odd situation with her. She is willing to admit she has an issue when it benefits her - housing, SSI, empathy and handouts from others. When it comes to actually getting help and it forcing her to confront herself and admit she needs to change, she completely balks and refuses the therapy she needs.

I did not mean to offend, Copa. We all have to find the ways that work with our own very different situations. I wish I could tell my daughter the truth, any truth. Not only how much she hurts me, worries me, frightens me with her choices, words and actions, but how much I love her, miss her, need her to come back to me. All she is able to hear are "criticisms," no matter how I word it, and whatever tenuous peace I have is immediately broken and she berates me with my own words. The therapist explained it is a "retraining" of how to interact by responding to good choices and behaviors, and ignoring or removing myself when she makes bad ones. Unfortunately, she has many people in her life that continue to feed into and "reward" the things she says and does.

 

[Copabanana]

You did not offend, Walrus. We are all of us very sensitive. I believe there could not, not be a sense of personal failure whether we admit it to ourselves or not. It is good for me to represent myself truly and for others too to see that we struggle, and do not always do it "right." When I first came to this board my feelings got easily hurt. I am trying hard to speak up for myself. In doing so I believe I speak to others as well.

When it comes to actually getting help and it forcing her to confront herself and admit she needs to change, she completely balks and refuses the therapy she needs.

In our case, I had to deal with my son's recurrent hospitalizations for suicidality. And he was homeless off and on or close to it. I know how afraid I was. I am still afraid.

But I was able to insist that he fend for himself. Even with a chronic illness, for which he required treatment. This was the hardest thing for me, because I am afraid he will die. But I had to face that he could die and accept that I could not prevent it. When I faced that, it all got easier. Our children have a great deal of power over us because we love and do not want to lose them. That power over us may not be good for them.

All she is able to hear are "criticisms," no matter how I word it

I wonder if this is a way that she seeks to control you, and if there is an element of choice in this. Defensiveness is always easier in the short run as a strategy to volley responsibility back to others. My son does it too.

I do not know how or why it has started to change but I think it might be that the way he was living was so difficult (near street, always having to pack up and move on. Losing stuff. Not feeling secure or safe) And there is the motivation now to live better.

He must cooperate and listen if he wants my help. Or it may be his age. As I said in another thread 27 is the magic age for males when their brains reach a level of maturity, some of them.

COPA

 

[TheWalrus]

I do believe it is a form of control. When I stopped engaging, she tried other tactics to "get a rise" out of me. I just don't bite. I don't hear from her now unless she wants or needs something, which is another hurt, another "control." She is still very, very young. I believe that we all have free will and we cannot pray for someone to change. However, I pray daily that doors continually are put in her path in the hopes that one day she will choose to open one.

 

[Copabanana]

I don't hear from her now unless she wants or needs something, which is another hurt, another "control."

I know the pain of this, Walrus. She is very, very young. I believe you have done the right thing, not permitting her to live with you if she will not meet your reasonable requirements, which really, are for her own good.

Our situation was somewhat similar, except it took me longer to do the right thing.

My son has a chronic illness which requires treatment. If my son does not have treatment, I fear he will die a premature and painful death. The hardest thing for me was to accept that I could not control whether he lived or died. I could not make him get treatment.

Honestly, until about 6 months ago, I endured all manner of indignities to "get" my son to go to treatment. Every single heroic thing, he undermined. Finally, I accepted defeat.

I believe this was a turning point. I cannot keep my child alive. I accepted this.

I think you are incredibly brave doing the right thing for your child, knowing what is at stake, either way.

I think by doing this hard thing, myself, insisting that the consequences be his, of his poor choices, is what may have made it possible for him to choose a little bit better.

COPA

 

[Devasted Mom]

Hi Everyone, I have stayed away awhile because I felt as if I was sounding like a broken record. Saying the same things over and over again. I didn't want to be annoying to others cause I annoy myself. So a lil update, my daughter has made her 1 st payment. She is selling a lot of stuff along with giving me money out of her paycheck. I am not thinking about this every minute of every day. The sisters have starting texting each other a lil bit. My older daughter not 100% on board yet. However I am still far far away from happy. Easter I usually have dinner with family at my house. I cancelled the whole day and let everyone go their own way. I was having extreme anxiety about her being here as we are all still quite uncomfortable with this situation. I know all the questions I want answered by her really are irrevlant because it is what it is. Yet that is what is eating at me. I feel I want answers!!!!! So that is pretty much where I am right now

 

[New Leaf]

Hi DM, welcome back......holy schmolly, please don't stop yourself from posting, I annoy myself too, but we have to have some way to get all that stuff out.
We are not annoyed.
It's understanding to be somewhat repetitive when dealing with something we never, ever imagined, ever.
Things sound like they are moving forward, that is good.
I don't blame you for taking a break from an Easter gathering, this is your comfort zone, not anyone else's. We all need time to process.....
Cant blame you either for wanting answers, I think we all do. Your daughter might not be able to honestly tell you for awhile.
I am glad she is taking measures to repay you.

Hopefully she will follow through all the way.

Is she still going to therapy?

Time heals all wounds, but it is on your time.

Although you are far from happy, at the very least your daughter is making an effort.
That is good.
Thanks for checking in, and don't be so hard on yourself about posting.....everyone around here is glad to see updates.
(((Hugs)))
leafy

 

[Devasted Mom]

Thank you. Yes she is still going to therapy. I believe she is trying, just don't understand how someone does something so drastically horrifying you get caught doing it and you just start doing everything right ? Can't wrap my head around it . So far off the spectrum of normal

 

[New Leaf]

That would knock me for a loop, too.
It just adds to the big ole
WHY????
Maybe getting caught was the ticket to "seeing" the wrong. If she is addicted to shopping and you are talking high end purchases, I am sure that money went fast.
It is an addiction, just like drugs are, and addicts do whatever they want to get their " fix".....they don't see any other person or thing between them and what they want.
The addiction is really in the drivers seat.
I know, I resisted that too....yes, there is a choice made. Yes, they are responsible. We know this. But understanding what drives the behavior is important. It is unacceptable, most definitely. You are spot on, so far off the spectrum of normal.
Certainly not how we raised our children.....,
leafy

 

[Devasted Mom]

And it is so hard for me to truly believe this stupidity as an actual addiction. I would also like to say sorry for being so self absorbed. I read your story and truly commend you for your strength to endure your own situation and yet have the ability to help me with this craziness! Thank you

 

[GoingNorth]

Shopping addiction is a real disorder. Shopping releases dopamine, the pleasure chemical, just as do many drugs.

Be aware that shopping addiction is often also a manifestation of classical mania in sufferers of bipolar disorder.

I think, however, that one has to "primed" in some way as while anyone except someone who is on dopamine suppressing drugs (such as APs)will experience a high from, say, meth.

Not everyone gets a rush out of spending money. For example, I loathe shopping. I do as much as possible online and I do it as quickly and as efficiently as I can.

I buy quality when I buy, so I don't have to buy again right away and hence, spend more on the initial purchase.

I think we have someone on the board who has dealt with this. Perhaps if she reads this, and is comfortable discussing this issue, she can give you a better explanation.

 

[New Leaf]

And it is so hard for me to truly believe this stupidity as an actual addiction. I would also like to say sorry for being so self absorbed. I read your story and truly commend you for your strength to endure your own situation and yet have the ability to help me with this craziness! Thank you

DM, you are not self absorbed, you are hurting, a mom in pain. Please do not apologize, that is why we are here, we are each going through our own battles.

Responding and posting here, helps me to work through my own challenges. It reinforces the course I need to take, and really helps me get out the feelings that I can choke on if I try to stuff it down.

Thank you for letting me "talk" with you!

Everyone has their own way and time to work through and grieve over what has happened to our kids.

It is a journey. But, it is not the end of the story.

It may help you to work through your feelings by seeing a counselor. I did, because I was in such a state of shock, I felt like I was whacked upside my head.
Posting here helps me a lot, because it helps me think things through when I write.

You are not self absorbed. Stop being so mean to yourself.
This is hard stuff to deal with.
No one would see this coming.
The rug has been pulled out from under your feet.
This stuff hurts us to the core.
Our own kids ripping us off, who would have thought of that?

GN is correct, shopping addiction is real, just as gambling addiction, food addiction, drug addiction. We can't fathom it, because we wouldn't foresee ourselves with something like this.

You have value and you matter.
You are not self absorbed, you have feelings.
It hurts when one of our own does this kind of thing, it feels like such a betrayal.

What I can tell you is what your daughter did, was not an attack on you.

It feels like it, but it wasn't.
Again, I am not trying to excuse her actions, it is still unacceptable and she needs to recompense.
She needs to pay back every cent of it.
I hope she will, and I hope she has learned a valuable lesson.
Only time, and her actions will tell.

Keep posting DM and work through this.
The good warrior Moms and Dads here will help you.
You are going to be okay, I just know it.

(((HUGS)))
leafy