Daughter 24 stole from me

[Copabanana]

to them, we are irrelevant. Our feelings, everything we've tried to teach them - none of it matters. They want what they want and they take it

I think they do not weigh their desire against the cost to us. I think all of what they know about right and wrong, our love and theirs for us, they leave in one compartment where it does not touch, or impede what they choose to do that hurts us.

Our feelings, the fact we're a family, the morals we tried to teach them. That's weighed against their greed and greed wins.

I do not think they weigh against. There is no deliberation. They just do it. No thought.

These situations force you to face the naked truth about who they are and also who we are.

This I disagree with. I believe that in the case of D's daughter, this action does not have to define who she is. If she takes it seriously and does what she needs to do to change.

That we know of there has been one terrible thing she did. We do not know of others. One act.

The world is full of people who do horrible things repeatedly. They change, when they want to, if they want to.

This act does not have to define who she is.

COPA

 

[Devasted Mom]

Addiction of any kind is an illness. Dont take it personally. All active addicts are selfish. Its part of the diseases symptoms.

I am trying hard not to take it personally.it hard not to though,when all the wrongdoing was done to me. I guess time heals all

 

[Copabanana]

I guess I have to separate the mom part

I think it would help if you separated out the Mom part, in how you understand what she did. She did not mean to do it to you. I believe that. She did it to your money.

The rest of it? How can you separate out the Mom part? When you figure it out, let me know please.

COPA

 

[Devasted Mom]

I think it would help if you separated out the Mom part, in how you understand what she did. She did not mean to do it to you. I believe that. She did it to your money.

The rest of it? How can you separate out the Mom part? When you figure it out, let me know please.

COPA

I'm waiting for you to tell me how to do it lollllll .

 

[Copabanana]

I guess time heals all

From my experience so far, time just heaps it on. But we learn better how to deal with it. You will toughen up.

Remember to take care of yourself. There is a silver lining to this: learning to take care of yourself, to factor yourself into the equation, do nice things for you....and realizing that you are important in yourself, not just as a mother.

COPA

 

[Devasted Mom]

From my experience so far, time just heaps it on. But we learn better how to deal with it. You will toughen up.

Remember to take care of yourself. There is a silver lining to this: learning to take care of yourself, to factor yourself into the equation, do nice things for you....and realizing that you are important in yourself, not just as a mother.

COPA

This is my first rodeo and yes I am going to start factoring myself in. I have put people before myself for far too long. Thank you for another night of inspiring,conversation. I actually smiled this evening!!!!

 

[TheWalrus]

Proud of the adult I thought she would be.

We have to love people for who they are, not who we want them to be or who we think we can "shape" them into.

Learning they aren't who we thought they were is shocking. Learning to love the person before you is a challenge. Learning to let go of the person we thought they were is overwhelming.

Key word? "learning"

 

[Copabanana]

I actually smiled this evening!!!!

Good.

We have to love people for who they are, not who we want them to be or who we think we can "shape" them into

This is so, so hard. Because I want my son to be happy, to have a life of dignity, of meaning. Secure.

I know, I know that I have to learn to accept him as he wants to be, is able to live. But it is very hard for me because my identity is tied to him. Still.

COPA

 

[Devasted Mom]

Ok so I spent a lil time with daughter last night . We were both soooo uncomfortable, she could not even look at me while talking. She got a job and was telling me about her pay, job responsibilities, visit to the doctor, . Telling me first repayment to me will be on time. Very general conversation people say an elephant is in the room. This felt like the whole zoo was in the room. And why do I feel like I want to say hurtful things to her, I didn't do that but I wanted too! I wonder will I ever feel normal with her or will this just be my permanent feelings to her. I hurt for her as well as I watch her so uncomfortable. My emotions are running wild today!!

 

[BusynMember]

Give yourself time. Lets face it, she did a horrible thing to you, her own mother. If she honestly wants to make it right, she will, and your feelings will probably soften toward her. We are only human. When we are violated, hey, we feel bad and its takes time.
Be good to yourself. Your emotions are normal and to your great credit you did not say anything hurtful. Many would!! I think you did well. Baby steps.

 

[Copabanana]

And why do I feel like I want to say hurtful things to her, I didn't do that but I wanted too!

I DO say hurtful things. I seem not to be able to stop myself. But I do not say them to hurt him. I seem to want to get a reaction in him, to see the person I love is still there. I also feel that it is the right thing to tell him what I believe is correct. Treating people right. Doing what is right. I believe this is my role. It has helped.

will this just be my permanent feelings to her.

No.

I hurt for her as well as I watch her so uncomfortable

I know, but it is those emotions that will help her change. Shame. Guilt. Anxiety. They are signals to her that she needs to right herself.

It would be way worse if she did not feel them.

Glad you are here. Keep posting. Try to relax and do something fun, or soothing, or diverting, whatever that might be. You are doing this.

Did she have the 2k purse with her? Oh? Is that snarky? Sorry. I guess I am envious. I want one, too.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

This is.my opinion.

I think shaming our adult kids is not good and makes them act worse and behave badly because they feel they are bad. This was the case in my life with my own shaming mother.

I also do not feel it is beneficial to call our loved ones demeaning names for any reason. I feel one has a better chance of acting better if they feel they are good people and loved. The names I was called by mother just made me feel worse and at times I truly hated her.
I believe "less is more." Listen but say little. No shame. Shame is toxic. It can last a lifetime. If she feels shame on her own that is on her. Dont be the one to put that on her. You did well and should feel proud that you set a good example.

 

[New Leaf]

We were both soooo uncomfortable, she could not even look at me while talking. She got a job and was telling me about her pay, job responsibilities, visit to the doctor, . Telling me first repayment to me will be on time.

Devastated, these are good things. She is working at it. I agree with Copa, that it is good that she is feeling as she does. Remorse and regret drive us to repent and signal the need to right the wrong. It is hard to watch, but it is good. She needs to make amends for her transgression and her feelings are driving her to do this.

And why do I feel like I want to say hurtful things to her, I didn't do that but I wanted too! I wonder will I ever feel normal with her or will this just be my permanent feelings to her. I hurt for her as well as I watch her so uncomfortable. My emotions are running wild today!!

You are still hurting. We are only human. It is a terrible thing that happened. I do not think our d cs intentionally cause us pain with the choices they make. They are caught up in whatever addiction is driving them.
It still hurts us. Tremendously.
Work through your feelings. Be honest with yourself. Keep posting. It is all a process.
You are a person with value and worth, a mother who has been hurt by this act of your daughter.
It rocks our foundation like an earthquake, the tremors and aftershock linger for awhile. The shaking will subside, then we can slowly lift ourselves up, clean up our "houses", gather up our scattered and strewn emotions, then work towards restrengthening and fixing the cracks in our foundation.
Time will go by and the pain will lessen.
For now, take it slowly, one step.

It will be okay.
Be very kind to yourself and do something good for you.

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[Copabanana]

I think shaming our adult kids is not good

To shame somebody deliberately is wrong. I cannot think of a context where it would be necessary or helpful.

But shame, guilt and anxiety are human emotions that set us apart from animals. They help us constitute ourselves as human beings. Without these emotions we might sexually abuse our young, and siblings might kill each other. Without anxiety we might not respond to danger. These emotions are what protect us and guide us. These emotions help us learn right from wrong and help us correct course when we need to.

Of course shaming is wrong.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

Guilt has helped me not repeat deeds I felt were wrong.
I have so much anxiety...ugh...nobody can give it. It is there. Im not sure how useful it is
Feeling shame never stopped me from child molesting. Empathy did. I could not do something that would harm anyone. I think empathy is the key to our adult children changing toward us. And others. And love os self helps to change their bad behavior that they do to themselves.
Although name calling can be human, I dont do it without apologizing after. I dont think it is ever ok. Jmo.
Honestly, I feel shame is not useful. But I understand your context, copa.
I just cant wish shame on anyone. Maybe that is a "me only" issue. Thanks for explaining.

 

[New Leaf]

I think what you both are writing about is conscience. Moral compass. I found this article and though it is written on degenerative brain diseases, it brushes on the reason why when our children make these awful choices we feel as if we do not know them anymore.
http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/identity-is-lost-without-a-moral-compass

I agree that shaming anyone is wrong. I don't think anyone is wishing shame here, just relaying that shame, guilt or anxiety is a consequence of a bad choice made.

Certainly, empathy and fellow feeling prevent us from committing horrible acts, and I have to tell you, I read your post a couple of times and said to myself...wait SWOT was not a child molester, never was. Just wanted to clarify that, because some may take that out of context. I think what you are saying is that your love and fellow feeling for children directed your right action with them, not shame.

When we do make mistakes and veer from our values, it is a normal reaction to feel shame, guilt, remorse. These emotions teach us and encourage us to make amends. I am not writing about others inflicting these feelings upon us, it is our inner selves, our conscience spurred on by our mistake that works at us.

"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does."

Jean-Paul Sartre

We all make mistakes. It is what happens after that, is most important, apology, recompense and learning the lesson to make better choices.

One would hope that our love and fellow feeling would be enough to prevent us from hurting others, but sometimes we miss the mark, stumble, fall. It is our conscience that goads us on to do better.

That is what I think. Though shame, guilt, and anxiety are terrible things to feel, we are motivated to do better by feeling them, because it is very uncomfortable to be in these feeling states. We are being pinched and poked constantly by our conscience. Hopefully the lesson and memory of those feelings, help us to choose more wisely in the future.

JMO
leafy

 

[TheWalrus]

There were times when my daughter was so awful, I would say things to hurt her back. It is a natural response to want to not only defend yourself, but hurt the person hurting you. It is almost instinct. This NEVER works. As SWOT stated, you can't shame someone or guilt someone into "feeling bad" for what they did. That person has to come to those conclusions on their own through self-reflection. Sadly, some never do. Hurting my daughter only made her resent me more, added "fuel to her fire" toward me, and would be later thrown in my face and I would feel so badly for the things I had said. I have learned to keep my feelings to myself and vent them elsewhere - here, my few close friends who know the situation, my husband. When she escalates and is ugly to me, I just end the conversation - even if it means leaving, not answering texts or hanging up the phone.

As for your feelings of awkwardness, those are natural too. You have been blindsided with the reality that your child is not who you thought she was, that she is capable of things you don't understand, and that she has hurt you in a way you have never felt before. It sounds as though she is truly remorseful and making the steps in the right direction to make amends. It will take time for your awkward feelings to subside. You are going to shy away from that which hurt you. For me, it is an ebb and flow with my daughter, because she has never taken any steps to make amends or change. She has fooled me a few times, and I have tentatively welcomed her back in, awkwardly at first, felt myself soften, and then had it blow up in my face again. It gets harder and harder to let myself soften and the awkwardness subside, but even in my situation, I have times when I can feel closer to normal with my daughter. They are few and far between and I cherish them, but I have learned not to raise my hopes that "this time is the corner turned." I don't think, and sincerely hope it won't be, the case with your daughter.

 

[Copabanana]

you can't shame someone or guilt someone into "feeling bad" for what they did. That person has to come to those conclusions on their own through self-reflection.

As a parent of an adult child, I believe that my role entails a moral, and educative component still. From who else will our children hear the truth. I am speaking here not of shaming, not of beating them up with our own point of view. I am talking here of a bottom line.

You know better. I raised you to know right from wrong. You know what to do. I trust you.

This is not shaming, from my way of thinking. It exhibits trust and confidence. I also believe that an honest response to foolishness, exasperation or a show of fear is honest and constructive. We are human. Even psychotherapists have come to the place of showing honest human responses to their clients. The president shows authority and conveys it. As parents, is it wrong to do the same?

Even though these are our adult children, they are our children and we are their parents. I believe they depend upon us for guidance still. Not micro-managing, not controlling, but responses that show that we care whether they do right or wrong by our standards.

Of course we all approach this from a different place and different values. And of course the above are only my own.

COPA

 

[Devasted Mom]

Give yourself time. Lets face it, she did a horrible thing to you, her own mother. If she honestly wants to make it right, she will, and your feelings will probably soften toward her. We are only human. When we are violated, hey, we feel bad and its takes time.
Be good to yourself. Your emotions are normal and to your great credit you did not say anything hurtful. Many would!! I think you did well. Baby steps.

Thank you I'm trying so hard to feel somewhat normal but hurt in the pit of my stomach does not subside for a minute

 

[TheWalrus]

Copa -

My daughter has Borderline (BPD). No matter how I phrase it - as a rebuke, a gentle "you know better," "you have hurt me," whatever - that is not what her brain interprets. Her mind is wired to pick up on certain things and ignore others, completely misreading the intention of the message. I think, in my opinion, that whether or not someone has a mental disorder, when they are in a place of anger, denial, resentment, addiction, messages don't come across as the messenger intended and actions are things that cannot be misremembered or picked apart for hidden meanings. Sometimes I think they enjoy working us up into a frenzy, controlling our emotions by getting us upset, engaging us in circular arguments.

I am still "guiding" my daughter to show her that her choices and behaviors are not acceptable by refusing to give her attention, engage her in arguments, or let her control my emotions. I stop everything and she has no doubt that what she has said or done is not ok.

An adult child who is rational, clear and level headed could honestly listen to a parent give guidance. I think the majority of difficult adult children cannot. At least not where they are right now. The day they can is when they are in a place where we can have normal relationships with them. The relationships we have with them now require a different approach, in my opinion.