I can't do this....

[Copabanana]

So, if you want to stay here, our conditions are: 1. You go have an actual evaluation by a psychologist to see if you have something that makes you different, like ADD or Aspergers.

I like this idea.

What I write below comes from looking back at years and years of mistakes. I am not saying it is right or wrong.

I would not say, we think something might be wrong with you or any version of that. Why? Because I have tried it and it was ineffective.

I am not saying to say these words but this is how I see it:

You have real potential.
How can we support you to go further?

Then he will say... (something).

Well I need you to pay my rent for one year.

Then you will say: How will that help?

Well I want to xx, xx and xx. If things are going well, there will be one constructive thing, that you can agree upon and talk about that goal and pivot the conversation to that.

But more than likely he will be negative and say: nothing ever works out for me. Everybody is unfair. Nobody gives me a chance.

Then you say something like this: We have been thinking about that. We want to offer the possibility of your having an evaluation to see where your talents lie and the ways in which you could get support if you need it, and how (or something like that).

If he asks I would say: With a neuropsychologist and a psychiatrist. And if you want, somebody to work with to develop a career or college plan.

Because really these evaluations start neutral. They do not assume pathology. The doctor may want to rule something out, but he or she starts with no bias. Your son would learn a great deal about his strengths and talents, as well as where he might be limited, with these tests.

So, he will either say yeah or f you.

If he says the latter say: the offer is always open. And that way he has made his choice. You have not given him an ultimatum. You have planted the seeds of change. If he is not interested he can continue along his merry way, and leave your home. You have a bottom line. So does he. But that does not mean he will not think about it, but you have said it in a way that is less likely to antagonize him.

If he says something that seems to ask a question about what is behind your wanting him to go I would tell the truth.

I would not say this: you can only live with us if you get tested. But I would know in my heart what I needed from him to let him stay. (It might not be evaluations or testing or therapy, but it will be something.)

And if he is unwilling to do the basic thing you need, I would stick to my guns, that he needs to leave, because he is not meeting you half way.

My son today said something like this: I really need some medication for my memory.

Well, I have felt he needed medication for more than memory for a long while. He has rejected it out of hand.

Hopefully, he goes back to see the psychiatrist on July 6th. Maybe he will at some point consider medication but it will not be because I have forced his hand. It will be because he has decided that what he is doing and how he is living is not working for him and he wants to change it.

If he refuses the evaluations, you have not lost the war, just the battle. He will remember.

 

[TheWalrus]

in my opinion, they never learn to balance if there is always a safety net below. It is hard to cut away that net, knowing they are going to fall. It is going to be messy and it is going to hurt, but they aren't children. They have to learn to do it on their own. If we are lucky, they are responsible and sensible and do it without too much hardship. But many have to fall, again and again, before they get it - and some never get it. The important thing is that when they fall, they get up on their own.

My disabled daughter who has more drug and psychiatric issues than I can wrap my head around is making it. She could be doing it the easy way, but she isn't. She is surfing couches, going wherever she will be taken in. But she is making it.

If you make every decision with an image in your mind of how YOU want it to work out and how YOU want it to be, you will never stick to one. These kids don't fit OUR image of what we want for them. You can't plan or wish his life into place. He will buck against it every time.

 

[Copabanana]

I agree with TheWalrus.

From my experience who will change, is Lil. Lil. You will tire. You feel sick and tired now. But a day will come when you cannot do more and you will cut him lose. You will want to cut him lose. Irregardless of what might happen to him.

It is going to be messy and it is going to hurt

Because even with normal average kids, there is risk. And most parents have the same ambivalence about it when they leave. But they do, the children they do leave.

It is hard to cut away that net, knowing they are going to fall.

When that moment comes, it will not be hard. It will be the only thing you can and want to do. I believe that. Because it happened to me.

The important thing is that when they fall, they get up on their own.

I agree with this. Like with TheWalrus my son sought out safe other places. He wanted to continue living in a safe environment with decent people. Even when he was homeless his standards did not fail him. He found decent people, usually, with whom to associate. Vulnerable people probably like he is.

This causes me a lot of pain to type, remembering--causes me pain because acknowledging it is painful. How much we have all been through here. Us and our kids.

These kids don't fit OUR image of what we want for them. You can't plan or wish his life into place. He will buck against it every time.

To conclude, this transition while it seems about the child is really about the mother.

What does she need to do, for herself, in order to reach the point where she knows she needs to and wants to cut that nest. Our children require it. Each of us must reach the point where we require it too.

 

[pasajes4]

Is it possible to allow him to continue living at home and maintain a degree of detaching perhaps in increments. Perhaps the first cutoff is not to buy smokes. No discussion no arguments. Then introduce other items that he must fend for himself.....no rides for recreational reasons...employment only and so on computer is for job seeking only. Just some thoughts

 

[Copabanana]

Is it possible to allow him to continue living at home and maintain a degree of detaching perhaps in increments.

You know my son is living with me again. I scarcely know how it happened, but he came back in increments.

Let me recall how it happened. He came back because he was thrown out everywhere. He had nowhere to go that he wanted to go. He did not want to be homeless anymore. That he knew. That was the basis of change. Because he knew what he did not want. And it was worth it for him to change in a way that he was no longer homeless. But still he tested.

He had showed up at my door at night. I let him in, even though I had told him do not come here.

He was out within 3 days. I could not stand it. Still he stayed in property we controlled, but away from me. Little by little he learned to conform enough and respond enough to our direction and limit setting. The changing had come from him.

So, I guess what I am saying here, is the impetus to remain with us or close to us must come from them, not them. And they must bear the burden and responsibility of changing. Not us. Only then can they come home.

That is what I think. These are not "normal" kids until they awaken that piece within them that loves us, and sees us and listens and responds.

For some reason in the years in the wilderness, they have forgotten this response to us, and it is this that causes all the havoc. Because without this response activated, they cannot fully awaken to themselves. It is really like they have been hurled back to a kind of infancy where there is a critical period where they need parents to act in such a way to awaken a critical developmental hurdle in them.

That is why I do not believe it works, incremental change without being forced out on their own. Because that is when this capacity to again respond to us may wake up.

That is what I think.

Lil and Jabber's son was away. But I think he is still at the stage my son was at when he came to my door in the night and I let him in. I think Lil and Jabber's son still thinks he can impose his rules, act in such a way as he chooses. He believes he leads, not his parents--in their space.

Something has to alert him to the fact that he has got his thinking all confused. That is why I believe that most likely he must confront leaving one more time. Or as many more times as it takes for him to get it: that he does not know what he is doing.

In this sense I do not necessarily buy in that Lil and Jabber's son has a severe diagnosis which is impeding him. He may well have but it could also be that he is hard-headed, strong-minded, stubborn and arrogant--and he does not know what he does not know, and lives from his feelings and impulses.

He needs to awaken the fact that there are other available options to him, in how to think, act and behave. It may be as simple (and difficult) as that.

To sum up, I believe he has to leave. For even a couple of days, until he is jolted into another form of consciousness. And his parents need to regain their power in the household.

 

[Lil]

We're still thinking. We have to make up our minds immediately, as the apartment is held to the 1st...I think. He has put in for several more jobs. He has even said he plans to call Arby's and beg for his job back.

Our choices are: 1) Kick him out. 2) Pay the $400 and hope he doesn't get evicted. 3) Let him stay here with conditions. I guarantee one condition would be a time limit and him banking (giving me to bank) half his pay. Also counseling of some sort.

We still are very unsure.

 

[Copabanana]

We still are very unsure.

Lil. What does your gut tell you? Is Jabber in the same place?

 

[Lil]

My heart and my head differ too much. My head says kick him out. My heart says have him stay. My head says that's just asking for problems. I don't know about Jabber. I think he agrees with my head.

Maybe my second choice is best since it's the one I'm thinking of least.

 

[Jabberwockey]

I don't know about Jabber. I think he agrees with my head.

You knew that already honey. My philosophy is that we made the deal that he could stay until the apartment is ready, whether he is or not. The apartment is almost ready, he isn't. Not our fault, not our problem. I'm only discussing options because this bothers Lil. She feels that this is kicking him out without warning because there was never a set date to leave by even though we were only ever given approximate time frames, never exact dates.

 

[BusynMember]

is their something special about this apartment or can you give yourself more time to ponder and, if you truly feel his leaving is best, find another place?

There is no perfect answer for any of us. The catalyst for making my daughter leave was a drug party, the cops continuous visits, and having to protect two very young children. Everyone has a bottom line, where we KNOW they have to do it.

My daughter had a job. She always worked. All of our kids are/were difficult in different ways.

We, as parents, hit our own rock bottoms.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

3) Let him stay here with conditions. I guarantee one condition would be a time limit and him banking (giving me to bank) half his pay. Also counseling of some sort.

This is the choice that will allow you to face yourself in the mirror some years from now. Because of the counseling. Or, treatment. Do you have a counselor or a treatment center in mind?

That we have done everything we could is what will matter in the years to come.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

The apartment is almost ready, he isn't. Not our fault, not our problem.

Lil. This has been going on for months. He knew. He decided. There is no way he did not know.

I am impressed that he is trying hard now. Even trying to get his job back. He is paying attention.

She feels that this is kicking him out without warning because there was never a set date to leave by even though we were only ever given approximate time

I think if it were me, I would give him now a specified time period, very short. Two weeks, at most. If you extend it more than that I think you might be sending the wrong message.

Oh dear. How did I become such an expert? Sorry.

 

[Albatross]

We, as parents, hit our own rock bottoms.

SWOT, you have once again rocked my world. Thank you. This is my new favorite find-my-center quote. Do you mind if I put it in my signature?

 

[BusynMember]

Alba, I am so flattered! Thank you.

Certainly you can use it any way you like

 

[Albatross]

I did! And I will! This is very profound for me. Thank you!

 

[Jabberwockey]

is their something special about this apartment or can you give yourself more time to ponder and, if you truly feel his leaving is best, find another place?

The apartment itself, no. Thing is, most landlords in town require you to have 6 months on the job before they will even consider you. The ones that wont tend to lean towards ghetto. Not always the neighborhood, but the apartments themselves. There is the possibility that another apartment in the same complex will be open later but there is no guarantee.

I think if it were me, I would give him now a specified time period, very short. Two weeks, at most. If you extend it more than that I think you might be sending the wrong message.

Oh dear. How did I become such an expert? Sorry.

Don't be sorry Copa. I would agree with you about the short time period. We shall see what happens though.

 

[BusynMember]

Hey, its true though. Our rock bottom allows us to finally put it on them and do what is best for us. We are sure what is right and can do what we need to do (which can vary person to person). Until then, much like an addict, we cant see what is really true.

My rock bottom with Goneboy was when he ignored me after my accident. The clarity was like the lens in my brain suddenly sharpened. I knew I HAD to make sure he never came back. It was a certainty, no hesitation like in the past. I totally knew.

Until then we live in a fuzzy world, not sure what to do. And that is a bad place to be stuck. Because although we know we cant make them do what we want them to do, we still either think we can control them or that they will do better if only we are there. And so we keep hoping, not sure of anything. Our vision is still fuzzy and we are not at peace.

 

[Copabanana]

Our rock bottom allows us to finally put it on them and do what is best for us.

And it also allows us to do what is best for them which is to experience life without us guiding them and/or taking the consequences, of softening them.

I do not think I ever really chose to put myself first, although it might have felt like that. M was the first one to see that, no matter how much I declared I wanted my son I was dying inside, just withering.

I do not think it ever became for me, my welfare over his. I believe that what clicked for me was that it was horrible for both of us for him to abuse me and to me to allow it and for me to watch and to permit him to destroy himself. That was the rock bottom for me. That gave me the strength to stop that.

No more destroying yourself and me and my watching helplessly. That is how I understand it now. Hitting bottom for me was not tolerating any more of that.

 

[BusynMember]

Yes, Copa that is exactly it. Rock bottom is, however it comes about, seeing clearly and with certainty that things have to change. It is that simple, but sometimes it is so long and hard to get to the point where we can do it and not feel guilty.

 

[TheWalrus]

My rock bottom was watching my daughter detox in rehab, after she almost died, only to have her say she didn't need counseling or drug rehab. I knew in that moment there was not one thing I could do for her until she opened her eyes and saw the truth in herself, if ever.