I had to say it...

[Jabberwockey]

These outbursts seem to me to go on too long. Immediately call 911.

Bear with me. Shoulder makes it hard to type. Not that it wasnt escalating already but when I told him to leave the situation went from 0 to 100 in nothing flat. Thats when the whole "So you're kicking me out" and "My DAD is calling the cops on me?!?!" crap starts. He claimed that I punched him in the face. What I did was stiff arm him as he was walking towards me and pushed backwards. During this he saw no problem with him trying to shove me aside to keep me from the phone or trying to smack the phone out of my hands. At this point, these are perfectly reasonable reactions in his mind but me trying to defend myself from his actions is not. Since he is in the right in his mind, my defense is actually an assault. If I were to tell him a similar situation right now while he is calm, he would agree with me.

Sorry, cant find who posted it but think it was either Copa or Cedar but I agree with Lil about not forcing his hand about seeking help. While I understand and tend to agree with your assessment, I know our son and how he would react. To say it wouldn't be pretty would be like saying that a tornado is just a bit windy. He is firmly in denial about needing help with anything and ANY suggestion to the contrary can send him flying off the handle. Yes, he is in serious need of psychological help but he wont acknowledge it.

 

[TheWalrus]

Until he does, there is nothing you can do to change his life or his choices or his outcomes.

 

[Jabberwockey]

and about 280 - mostly muscle.

LOL! Thanks Honey! I needed a good laugh this morning!

 

[Lil]

LOL! Thanks Honey! I needed a good laugh this morning!

51%?

 

[Tanya M]

Hi Lil,
I hope you are doing a little better today. Reading all of this gives me flashbacks to my own son.
My son would fly into tantrums/rages over nothing. Being asked to mow the lawn, clean his room, asking him what he did that day, it didn't matter.
One thing we did learn from all the family counseling we went to was that he is very emotional,and that he was not processing his feelings, again . Basically the counselor told us that he would let things build up inside and then at given moment he would explode. The counselor worked with him on his anger and impulse control, how to breathe, how to count to 20 and think about what he was going to say before he opened his mouth. So he was taught some really good skills but never put them into practice, instead, they became his "excuse" "I can't help myself I have impulse control issues"

Unfortunately, the old shoplifting charge that we thought he'd slipped thru the cracks on - hadn't slipped at all. He had two warrants, one for not paying the court costs, one for not doing community service

I remember you sharing with us how you told him he needed to find out about this to make sure there was not a warrant out for him. You also told him that if he didn't check into it and came back to your town that it could become an issue.
This is all on him. I see nothing wrong with the way Jabber dealt with it. As you said, all those years of working in corrections, it's just second nature to him.

I have no idea why it set him off so much. He'd called me screaming about it...how no one would help him when all he wanted was a ride, etc.

I was on the receiving end of these screaming rants many times. It is absolutely mind boggling that your son or mine do not see all the help that has been given to them.

He was also told that we won't have him bringing liquor into the house anymore. It seems a bit hypocritical, we have wine in the house after all,

This is not hypocritical at all. It's your house.

He gets in your face and won't stop. You leave the room, he follows.

My son would do this too. He would get right in my face and ball up his fists and scream at me. When he grew taller than me and out weighed me it really scared me. No one should live with that kind of fear.

I should point out, our son has never been violent toward us. He's punched doors. He's tried to goad a fight, no doubt...posturing and puffing...but the closest he's come to physical assault is to try to grab a phone away.

My house has several holes in the wall and the one through our bedroom door where he took a hammer to it to get in because it was locked. Then there was the time I came home to find my kitchen counters had been hacked at with my butcher knife. While this was not aimed directly at "me" it was still violence against me. Our homes are where we should feel safe and when our homes are vandalized it's an attack on our safety.

As for him getting drunk last night and it being a bad sign - well duh. Of course it is. Of course he's high risk. Have I not lectured and lectured and lectured about it?

Been there too. It's like trying to talk a brick wall into moving.

It is what it is. What's done is done.

So true.
Lil, there is nothing easy about any of this.
You and Jabber's hearts were in the right place. You offered to help him out because of the fire. Your son has not taken this bit of help seriously. I think it's much to easy for our difficult children to fall back into old patterns when we let them live with us.

Now you just have to be prepared with a plan come June 1st if he has not earned and saved enough money. It would be my guess that he's hoping you will feel sorry for him and let him stay.

As for the upcoming court date, you never know, this might be what it takes to wake him up.

I'm just so sorry your son's choices are causing so much heartache for you. I really do know how you feel.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Well so far so good this morning. We have talked a bit, inane small talk and nothing more, but its a start. He left a bit ago to go for a walk. To where and to do what? Not my business or my problem. I think he just needed some distance because he wants to talk about yesterday but is scared it will escalate again.

For the record, Lil did not take him to a bar. She took him to a friend with whom he might have been spending the night. The fact that they were at a bar was beyond our control. We know for a fact that they keep alcohol in the house as our son has brought random types of beer home from there several times.

As to the drugs, well, J is back in town and was our sons first introduction to drugs. I'm fairly certain that within a week of J coming back to town he was doing drugs again. J may have matured a bit but is still nowhere near a good or even neutral influence on our son. Hell, J has some fairly serious (or used to have, not sure about now) anger management issues himself. Not exactly a role model.

 

[Jabberwockey]

When he grew taller than me and out weighed me it really scared me. No one should live with that kind of fear.

Not really an issue. Unless he gets in a lucky shot, I can take him easily and he knows it. Even with only one arm right now, I wouldn't have much trouble putting him on his butt. Granted, I WOULD end up hurting him in the process. The thing is, he knows this. Yesterday wasnt about scare tactics. It was about loss of control, pure and simple.

I think it's much to easy for our difficult children to fall back into old patterns when we let them live with us.

Which is what has scared me since the day he walked into the door. It's always so much easier to fall back into old habits for all of us. Part of the reason its so hard to quit smoking, lose weight, get more exercise, etc..., etc..., etc...

It would be my guess that he's hoping you will feel sorry for him and let him stay.

Not sure if its a conscious thought but I agree with you. Unfortunately for him it wont happen. IF he were actually putting out a serious effort to change, IF he were actually making a serious attempt to find gainful employment, IF he were actually seeking psychological help then maybe we could work something out. Yesterday, if nothing else, was proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cannot stay here long term right now.

As for the possibility of him pressing charges this time or for another incident, I dont see that as an issue. First off, I have documentation about the shoulder injury. I couldnt have lived my life this long without actively seeking out confrontation with him. Besides, being in constant pain and unable to get sufficient sleep is documented to increase aggression. Secondly, as has been mentioned several times before, I've worked for corrections for 24 years and will ALWAYS react like that to a threat, even if it isnt meant to be a threat. Immediately after putting him in the headlock, it took me a full five seconds to realize that I had done it and to thing about how to release him without encouraging further confrontation. Finally, in almost 50 years of living I have NO recorded incidents of unprovoked violence. I simply have NO reason to fight him when I can simply put him out. Add on to this there are now three recorded incidents of me calling the police on him in an attempt to prevent violence.

Ok, gotta go for now. Shoulder isnt liking me trying to type.

 

[Lil]

For the record, Lil did not take him to a bar. She took him to a friend with whom he might have been spending the night. The fact that they were at a bar was beyond our control.

Well, to be precise, I took him to meet J, who was being dropped off in front of the bar. The friend who's house he was going to lives within a block or two of it and that particular corner is a handy meeting place. The bars (there are 3 side by side) were all closed when I dropped him off. Did I know he'd be drinking? Of course. Did I think he'd go in a bar and get drunk? Not really. I thought he'd go to the friends house. Instead, he and J went and listened to the bands. J is a musician, so live bands are quite a draw to him.

 

[New Leaf]

I'm sorry folks.

I wish I could edit that. I guess he's not the only one who freaks out and regrets it.

Lil you have nothing to be sorry for, this is a very frustrating situation. All I can say is for you and Jab to hold close to one another. It is very trying to be in the thick of things and figure out the next move. Your relationship with your husband, valuing yourselves, your peace and each other is the most important thing.
We raise our kids and they will grow up and make choices. They will venture out and eventually, hopefully learn to fly.
What lies in between is the love you and your husband share and your right to live out the rest of your lives joyfully, together.
My hubs and I did everything we possibly could to try and help our two. Looking back, in retrospect, we agonized over their choices, stepped in and tried to help and make sense of it all, but afterwards realized there was not much we could do, or could have done to stop the train wreck. In the end, it all came down to their choices.
This took a toll on our relationship and precious time.
Whatever you decide to do is up to you. This is your family. You need to be able to look in the mirror. The good folks here share their opinions I believe from their own experience and genuine concern for each other.
But ultimately, the action you decide on is between you, Jabber and your son.
My heart goes out to you dear, it is the most difficult journey.
Hold tight to your husband and work together. The bond you have must be first and foremost.
In the long run, whatever your son decides to do with his life, your marriage and relationship is what needs to be kept strong to weather whatever the future brings.
Looking back at the years spent dealing with the chaos of our daughters choices, my biggest regret is the hardship it put upon us as parents, a couple, people. They continued on in their choices and left a trail of devastation, and to this day, are oblivious to the consequences we all reaped as a family.
I am saddened that what turned out to be my last years, months and days with my soul mate were fraught with the chaos of our two daughters lifestyles.
Time and unforeseen circumstance can effect any of us. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to take care and focus on your mate. It gives new meaning to vows taken
"The two will become one flesh. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder."
This applies to our adult children as well.
My heart goes out to both of you.
(((Hugs)))
Leaf

 

[Copabanana]

My son went to jail for 2 nights

When I was 21 I went to jail for one night.

Lil & Jabber did what they did in the heat of the moment, and then, when things calmed down, they chose to respond in the way they felt was best for their situation.

I don't think Lil and Jabber did anything wrong.

I am not saying they did anything wrong. How could I?

This is not about right or wrong. It is about their son growing up to be a person like his parents. And what most of us here on this site have learned is this: for our kids to have the best shot requires that we detach, even for a few months. From taking responsibility for and accepting consequences for what they do and do not do.

I for one did not have that concept before I came here.

To me this is concerning:

He claimed that I punched him in the face.

he saw no problem with him trying to shove me aside to keep me from the phone or trying to smack the phone out of my hands.

Since he is in the right in his mind, my defense is actually an assault.

Now. All of you know that my son broke my foot and almost 10 years later tackled M and gave him a black eye. And I think you know that police have been called to my house maybe a dozen times.

And I let my son return. Dozens of times. Nobody is saying that any of this is easy.

But we post to each other in part to gain clarity about our own thinking, so that we can better choose and respond in our own lives. We do not know each other really, and probably never will. As we post to each other, we are working stuff out for ourselves.

Nobody can say what to do in our own situations at any specific time except us. We hone our skills in these posts.

 

[Lil]

I had a long response and lost it.

Tanya: Thank you. He says he's going back to his counselor and that he needs to work on the anger issues. He really likes her. I hope that he does.

Leafy: Thank you too for your wisdom. I think of you daily.

Copa: I don't think they were specifically talking to you.

 

[Copabanana]

Copa: I don't think they were specifically talking to you.

I know Lil. I was not being defensive.

I am writing all of this to you. I want to give you hope.

I know you have a great deal of self-confidence, and you should. You have a great deal of strength, and intelligence, too. Nobody needs to remind you of that. In a million years I would not want you for an adversary. You are enormously kind, but I believe you would be relentless, if you believed in your cause.

All of these qualities make it more difficult for you, with your son because all of that strength intelligence and relentless commitment were in the service of that baby and child he was. He was (and is) your cause. As much as Jabber he is the love of your life.

Lil. Your heart goes to jelly with your son. The conflict is painful to even read.

Lil. You are not opposing him or abandoning him by deciding to oppose his bad behavior to you and Jabber or to take a stand with respect to his handling the consequences of his irresponsibility or bad choices. It is the opposite.

In my case it was the conspiracy theories where I found my strength. Remember? How afraid I was, because I thought it was so pathological? I could not accept that my son was such a wingnut. Only with that one thing, was I able to dig in. It turns out that by my digging in about that--not accepting a son off the deep end--was what seemed to have triggered his continually improving decision-making.

With that one choice, things changed.

Well, he is still treading water, but the power relationship between us changed, which was what he needed to have the constructive part of him, begin to work a little bit better.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Lil and Jabber, your feelings for one another, your respect for and consideration of one another as you come through this are beautiful things to witness.

So that was one thing I wanted to say. The other was that if you guys go to cyber-Hawaii where we can wear bikinis and be as tall as we like?

I want to come, too.

***

The thing is that a troubled child can escalate to redline so fast that we never see it coming. Second guessing ourselves after a redline incident prepares us better for the next time, but I think you should not second guess yourselves this time. The consequences have been horrendous and unforeseen. But. The person who took the first wrong action was your son.

He disrespected Jabber.

How the disrespect occurred matters less than whether Jabber should have allowed it to go unchallenged. Had Jabber cowered, given up the phone, left the house himself...what would he have been teaching his son?

However angry son was about what Jabber had or had not done for him lately, Jabber's son entered Jabber's personal space in an abrupt and threatening way.

***

Lil, you responded to someone earlier in this thread about the weeks and months you spent arranging things so your son could fulfill the obligations of his parole. I remember that time, Lil. You were a miracle worker, and we were all pulling for you and for your son and it looked like you'd done it and then...he walked away.

Just...walked away.

And there was a whole different, and equally horrifying, set of circumstances.

And you fought for him then too, and so did Jabber, and you both believed in him with all your heart.

You did well.

You do well, every time.

There may be help for your son in the Court system. I always tell the story about the mom who offered to bail our son out of jail if we could not afford it. I refused, explaining that I wanted my son to know what he was fooling with. In the years to come, her son would go to prison.

Mine did not.

Whatever our challenges, we all are required to learn how to navigate our lives. Your son is doing his best that he knows. You are too, and so is Jabber.

***

You guys?

Don't forget that I want to go to cyber-Hawaii too, okay?

Cedar

 

[Childofmine]

Ah, Lil and Jabber, I am so sorry all of this has happened to you. It is so freaking hard to love someone and be a part of this type of insanity.

Do you know how hard it was to even write that? How I'm SURE everyone is just going to say, "See - drugs! Throw him out! He's done it again! You're enabling him! You're doing the wrong thing! This is what you should do!" But I can't do anything right now. I can't even think. I can't even type anymore. I just want to scream and run away myself and NEVER COME BACK HOME!

It is what it is. What's done is done. The fact is, he's probably going to jail. He'll probably lose his job and apartment and be homeless again. His fault? Sure. That doesn't make me any happier about it. And at this point, though I appreciate everyone's support and suggestions and positions, I'm just tired of dealing with this and am starting to feel defensive and I'm just done for now. Maybe Jabber will weigh in, I don't have anything else to say about it for now though.

I love that you wrote this. Bare honesty. Yes, that is what you can bring to this forum. The truth, unvarnished.

Lil and Jabber, it is clear that you are doing the very best you can do in a very hard situation with no good answers or directions to go.

In some ways, it is good when they cross a line because things get clearer for us.

Your son has made progress since we have known you on this forum. One step forward and now three or four backward. But that is the way of life and of this type of struggle. It never goes in a linear path. It is filled with stops and starts and backward movement and then forward movement. He is still very young and has some time to go before his brain has a chance to mature more.

Who knows what is the root(s) of all of this? Who the heck knows? Mental illness, alcohol, pot, whatever? He is not ready to get help that is clear. He is still struggling with himself. He knows the consequences, because he has experienced them before. He knows what it's like to couch surf, have nowhere to go, stay with family and get kicked out, come back home and then have to leave again. He knows how to do this, and it isn't his first go-around with all of this. I find that comforting, that he knows the score.

He is a survivor that is clear. He is resilient, that is clear. He is going to have to figure it out or he will take yet more consequences.

I don't fault you at all for anything. You can only do what you can live with. That is one of our mantras here. I love that you are hearing different voices here, strident strong for one option or another, ideas you can consider or not---you are in charge of you and nobody else is. And you are also hearing words of comfort and care and support.

Take what you like and leave the rest. Step away for a time if you need to. I hope it is always a tremendous comfort for both you and Jabber to know that the people here Get. It. We have been there and done that and we truly do understand. This is the hardest stuff in the entire world, I do believe. I see nothing harder out there.

We are here for you. Don't forget that. Honesty is welcome here. Lots of hugs today. I hope you do something nice for yourselves and for each other tonight.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Lying to your parents its not new my sons lied to me I did to my parents and so forth now do I hate being lied by my kids yes but its not by far the thing I hate most not by far. You know why because I realized that they do not lie to hurt they lie to protect me or themselves if its not malice behind their lie why would I hate that more then anything.
I hate when people steal do violent things when their indifferent and when their abusive this is are things really make my blood boil.
He lied but is that the worst thing he ever did or did he do way worse and you forgave him?

My son is a compulsive liar- which I believed he learned to do to survive on the "streets". Ok fine. I understand the need to lie to survive. But he lied because he was selfish, needed money for himself or drugs or his drug addicted girlfriend, because he owed for drugs, etc. He lied so I wouldn't worry. But, lying I believe is a form of "theft" in my opinion. I said to him one day, son, how exhausting it must be every day for you to come up with a lie and a story to get money, it has to be so exhausting to think of a lie, a story, tell it, repeat it, remember what you said and to whom, then when caught, to defend it death that "it's the truth".

Lying steals a persons joy
Lying steals their family and friends joy and others who help the person lying in good faith (taking their word only to find out they lied to you)
Lying steals from your employer
Lying steals a person's sanity when they have been lied to over and over again
Lying destroys the person telling the lies (think about how much energy goes into thinking of a story to lie about; then keeping and supporting that lie daily, weekly. Then having to continue to lie again and again with a new story, new twist. Exhausting.)
Lying destroys relationships
Lying is a betrayal of trust
Lying destroys a persons character and integrity
Lying is mentally and physically exhausting to the person telling the lie and to the people they lie to
Lying hits you financially (when they lie for reason they need money)

For me and my trials with son, the lying is the worst drain on me. Because I have to constantly think and analyze, what he said, is it true, is it feasible, who can verify, I have to try and hunt the facts to fill a need to "prove he was lying" again. You call their contacts, the places they said this or that to confirm or deny what my son said. Only to be so physically and mentally exhausted from one lie he told. He has ruined other people's lives from spreading lies. He has caused his own drama by lying.

So for me, personally, lying is one of the worst things you can do to a person, because it does destroy lives.

Lil- I pray your son learns the consequences of lying- yes, we all lie, but our ADULT children lie to manipulate, lie to survive at any cost, lie for selfish reason. For your son- I think he lied about his job because he simply hated his job and just can't suck it up. It's easier to just quit, give up, walk away, find something different. I worked in a restaurant in my teens, I hated it, but it was a job and in looking back was a stepping stone for my career today as far as communication skills.

Even little lies cause a domino effect on a person's life and others who are in their life.

 

[pasajes4]

The condo has been booked. I hand picked the cabana boys.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...osive-disorder/basics/definition/con-20024309

This has occurred to me now and then. Except for causes and risk factors...which simply don't fit.

But the behavior fits very well.

I don't know what to do...I don't know what to say to him or how to deal with this anymore. He hadn't gone off since the first night...when he did and we told him we weren't putting up with it again. I don't know what set him off today or how to deal with it anymore.

I'm tired everyone. Jabber took a muscle relaxer and went to bed. He hurt his arm worse in the altercation today. I wish I didn't have to get up tomorrow and work, but I have no choice. I think I have to go to bed.

Or not. He just asked me to come pick him up. Guess he will be home tonight after all.

My son acted out with temper tantrums at about age 2 and for years, it was hell as he got older and older. I had to bring a behavior specialist to our home when he was about 8. I had to sit on him to keep him from biting himself, hitting me, pulling at his hair. I was exhausted- after about 1/2 hour to get him calmed down. It would start with something simple. Ok, time to put crayons away and brush your teeth. OMG, what a nightmare that would turn into. Then other days, it would be ok with those instructions.

Found out son had Oppositional defiance disorder. Of course one of many diagnoses. But research it- it is about sudden temper tantrums out of nowhere.

 

[Jabberwockey]

The condo has been booked. I hand picked the cabana boys.

As long as I get to go fishing while you all ogle the cabana boy's. If I'm forced to remain pool side, it could get ugly.

 

[Lil]

As long as I get to go fishing while you all ogle the cabana boy's. If I'm forced to remain pool side, it could get ugly.

But Honey, we all look good in swimsuits there. And that includes you. So you can be eye candy along with the cabana boys.

 

[pasajes4]

I booked you a complete deep sea fishing adventure aboard the finest sea worthy vessel available. You will have a chef at your beck and call and should your shoulder bother you, a deck hand will reel in the big one.