I HATE MONEY

[Childofmine]

Lil, be easy on yourself but start to work on these things.

We KNOW how hard this is. It is the hardest thing in the world to do---change ourselves and our relationships to our own children, now adults, who have not turned out like we so hoped they would. And then the issues/problems/stress goes on and on and on, never seeming to let up.

We will keep on doing the same things over and over again, until we are able to stop, reassess, and learn new ways of behaving.

And then, it is a long, long process that takes tremendous effort, and daily hard work. Daily hard work.

Warm hugs. Hang in there. Just do the very best you can, every day, every hour. That is all anyone can do.

 

[Lil]

Childofmine, thank you - really. My husband has told me I was babying him. He had stopped "offering advice" some time ago. I told him what I had realized and he said, "That's why I stopped giving him advice. He'll figure it out and if he wants advice he'll ask." Truly, I didn't see what I was doing until your post today.

I'm going to try very hard to back off. I may have to sit him down and tell him I realized I was treating him like a kid, not a grown man, and that I'm going to try not to anymore. I think if I don't, he's going to think I'm mad at him...if I just stop telling him what to do it'll seem like I've quit talking to him. lol

But in all seriousness, when I wrote my last post, the minute I wrote it, I felt better. My shoulders unclenched. I feel...lighter.

I may talk with my husband about the "proof" he's looking for work. Maybe instead we should just say, "no money-no car" and leave the rest up to him. If he wants money or to use the car, he'll find work. If not, at least we aren't going crazy thinking about it all the time.

Like I said, things to think about.

 

[Echolette]

I may have to sit him down and tell him I realized I was treating him like a kid, not a grown man, and that I'm going to try not to anymore.

Lil, this is a very reasonable thing to do, and is appropriate and respectful of his adulthood. I did that with my difficult child, and I've done it in a modified way with my easy child's too (they are only 16) as I start to let go of managing their lives for them. I say something along the lines of "you know as a mom it is hard to let go, and to step back and see that you are competent, and don't really need me to all the things I had to do for you when were little. I'm sorry I have continued trying to manage you when, now, as an adult, I know that you are fully able to manage yourself...that must have felt frustrating and demeaning. I am going to try to stop, but please be patient with me when I slip up. But it is my intention to get out of your way in managing your (time/calendar/money/job/schoolwork). I have a lot of respect for you and I know that you can do it on your own, indeed that you have to do it on your own as the next step in fully growing up. I love you."

Feels good to say, and I suspect good to hear. And then they've heard it.

Echo

 

[Lil]

So, this morning after we all got up and I had some coffee, I sat my son down and told him, "I haven't really been fair to you in a way. I've realized I keep telling you to act like a man, but I treat you like a kid; telling you to shower, to brush your teeth (I'll explain that), how to job hunt, where to look, what to wear. I've decided I have to stop that and I'm going to try very hard to treat you like an adult." He responded that, "It's okay, I don't really mind sometimes...but it can be annoying sometimes too." I told him, "I realize that and I'm your mom and I expect I'll still do it from time to time. So if I start, just say, 'I'm 19 mom...I got this.'"

I explained that this doesn't change a thing about the rules. We're still not going to stand for dishes in his room (in fact, reminded him today it needs cleaned up) and that as of noon today (yeah, we gave him a the morning) we want the car keys in our hands. He'll get no money or car until he has a job...(unless he needs it for an interview out of town like Thursday's fiasco - but we didn't tell him that).

I said, "You know how to find work and if you want to you will find it. You're a smart young man, you'll figure it out."

We also told him not to call me at work anymore unless he's in need of a hospital, the house is on fire, or he has good news - like a job. I told him every time he calls it gets me worked up and then I have to deal with people who complain about money and their kids and be impartial and it's just too much!

The talk went well. We'll see what happens next I guess.

Oh - and the teeth. FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS we spent on that kid's braces - necessary, not cosmetic - all of which had to be paid in ONE year - (I still don't know why, we have good credit and I've never heard of anyone else having to do it in one - but they just said it was something about our credit and wouldn't tell me more) and we fought him the whole two years he had them to brush his teeth and floss. Then when they came off we fought him to wear his retainer - by then he's 16. STILL fighting to get him to brush. By the time he was 18 he didn't have to wear it except for sleeping. Of course, the second he left for college, he stopped wearing it. He came home with teeth like a carney; crooked and yellow - nearly brown, and he didn't brush them the first WEEK - until I threatened to kick him out! All that money wasted. So his teeth are a thing for me. He did ask the other day if we'd buy some white strips. I told him we would, but ONLY if he promised that he'd use them as directed and start brushing at least two times a day. Today, I noticed, and told him, that his teeth were looking much, much better than when he came home. So...yeah. Guess he's been brushing.

 

[pasajes4]

Lil, It is not easy. It feels bad to not help them. It feels wrong to be happy when they are suffering from the consequences of their choices. When I am honest with myself, I have to acknowledge that my "helping" is for my benefit. I "help" so I don't have to feel bad.

 

[BusynMember]

I actually think that the "you can live at home" rule should be IF HE GETS A JOB. It's not that hard to find a cashiering job at a gas station. That way you don't send him jobs or ask for proof of looking. Proof of looking should not be enough. That lets him be complacent and maybe halfheartedly try to get a job twice a week and he is still following your rule. He could and will get a job when he wants one. And, this is just my own opinion, over my dead body would I let a kid drive my car unless he put in the gas and paid his share of the insurance, and I don't care how little he makes. Running around in a car, when you substance abuse, comes to no good anyway. My kids did it when they only worked part-time in high school. No gas, no car. No your share of our insurance, no car. Your son is of age and needs to learn that the money he makes is not just for his pleasure or he will expect every dime to be for his idea of "fun."

I sincerely hope you can work it out and learn to back off so that you are not so stressed. Nobody should be allowed to bother you at work. If it is an actual life threatening emergency somebody will notify you. Other than that, it can wait. Our impulsive difficult children have to learn to wait. It's part of life.

By the way, I'm all for removing the door and electronics. If he acts like a child, he gets treated like one. As of now he is not acting like an adult. I don't think you should remind him of anything anymore, even if his teeth are dingy yellow nor would I buy white strips. He can work and buy them. I've been a few toothless guys with yellow teeth who worked, mostly in the trades, but your son isn't going to get a top level job anytime soon anyway. And if it were me, as I told my easy child daughter yesterday while on a long drive, "You're an adult now and you learned all we can teach you. I hope you remember what we learned, and make good choices, but I am not going to tell you what to do anymore. I'm here to talk to you about anything at any time, but it's your path to take now." This was to a very together kid a few weeks before she is going away to college, but I really think it applies to all adult kids. Our parenting is no longer needed when they are grown up and they know what to do. Nagging them to do what they know they should do, as if they were young children, in my opinion only is a big waste. Natural consequences in my opinion are a better option. Let them learn from life what they can get away with and not, such as yellow teeth.

Seems like you were always overly engaged with your son. That makes it all the harder to step back, but we are all here for you holding your hand and you can do it!!!!

 

[Lil]

I think, for now, we're not going to push on the job - he wants money and a car to drive, he'll find one. If he doesn't, he won't. I'm certain there will be a finite amount of time before my husband and I get tired of it and I'm certain he will, at some point, ask about money and I'll tell him no and then the fight will be on, but I'll deal with that when it comes.

At this point, we're going with what may seem a bit of a gentle approach, but it's certainly different than what we've been doing. We'll see if this works first.

At least he's taken it well. I can't say he's happy, but he's not complaining. I'll take the mostly peaceful weekend. It's been a while since I've been this stress-free, not that I am stress-free, but better than usual. The decision to stop pushing him where every little thing is concerned has been somewhat freeing.

 

[Childofmine]

You are making progress Lil. That is what it is all about: Progress not perfection.

Kudos to you today! Just for today Lil, that is all we have anyway. Small steps lead to larger steps. Be patient, learn how to wait, learn how to say nothing and do nothing, even at first for small periods of time.

The New You will start growing inside yourself and peace, hope, contentment and serenity will start to follow.

Keep talking to us. It's okay to fall down, as long as you keep getting back up again. Hugs!

 

[Lil]

The nerve this kid has never ceases to amaze me.

He has sat down and put in six job apps today, or at least emailed places with ads. Mostly office work; he has a lot of computer skills. He also talked with the mother of his friend who got the job at the factory I mentioned earlier and she said they are still hiring and he should go back and apply. At their job fair they were doing applications, interviews and drug tests all at once and it's possible he might be hired on the spot. They were hiring production, office and warehouse.

It's also too far to walk and no bus runs there. Yes, we could have told him to ride a bike...but do we really want him to get there all sweaty and nasty (it's HOT here) or just not go at all? So, while son didn't ask for the car, husband and I talked and decided to let him use it. JUST for this ONE place. We know where it is. We know how far it is. We're writing down the mileage and we'll check it. He may stop at stores along the route to see if any are hiring, but he goes straight there and straight back. Period.

We tell him this. Does he thank us? No. He thinks our checking mileage is ... overboard or something.

I tell him, "We don't HAVE to let you use the car at all. YOU lost that privilege...not only that, you could have gone any time last week before you lost the car. So you can take it or leave it." He just "knows the last month didn't go like it should; he just doesn't want this 'hanging over his head.'"

Basically, my kid's an a-hole.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil...you have faced something that I had to face, and way before he was in his twenties. It was a horrible revelation to me. He was my first and only child for six years and very adored, yet he was always around when other little kids got hurt and it was never his fault (although the others all said it was) and I actually believed he was being picked on at first. There is lots more and he continued to be a, well, kind of a jerk throughout his life, including getting involved in illegal activities, doing inappropriate things to his little sister (such as making her watch porn and holding her head up so she had to look) and lying and being such a good thief (this is a very bright person) that he was the King of Shoplifting as he hit middle school (it made him quite popular) and it probably continued as he grew older. He may still be sneakily stealing. But back to his childhood...he wasn't nice or connected much to anybody except me and with me he was too connected and often not nice to me anyway. He slapped my cheek hard once. He cornered me and spit at me. And more.

Some adult children are only mean because of the disease of addiction. HOwever, many have been problems since way before that and the addiction is just another problem to deal with, a bad one. In our case, before my son started drinking and eating Xanax, there were definite signs of abnormal behavior.

Early on I knew that my son was not heading in the direction of "nice." Now here is something else I've told the posters here a few times, but don't make a big deal out of it because HE doesn't seem to have any interest in it or care. He was a donor baby and I have no idea who the birthfather is, although the doctors usually try hard to use young men who are healthy and on the right track. So I see tons of MY FAMILY in this young adult. There are lots of not-nice people in the family, but I breaks my heart that I have to say my own son is one of them, although I tried sooooooooooooooo hard to teach him about kindness and empathy and loving other people and respecting other's rights, which he doesn't always do.

The day I had to say to myself, with radical acceptance, "My son isn't a nice person. He has antisocial traits and uses others. He could be classified as a plain old jerk" I let out a sigh. It was out in the open instead of just in the back of my mind, with me trying to block it. So far, besides loving me, and I know he does, he also loves and is good to his son, if not too good and setting himself up for a difficult child who will have entitlement issues because my son buys him EVERYTHING and ANYTHING. But, of course, his son is a "Little Me."

It is hard to admit that our grown children have not turned out to be nice, caring and empathetic. At least I think it is. But at least, with radical acceptance, once we admit it, we know how they will behave because we acknowledge who they are. Then it becomes our job to decide how WE are going to handle this because that is the only power we have over them. There are things I've found t hat actually do work, at least in his behavior toward me. I hope you can find your key to dealing with your son's disrespect.

Hugs and more hugs. You are having a tough time and we are all here with you.

 

[Lil]

MWM, your first paragraph left me kind of speechless. I'm constantly reminded on this board that my kid is, relatively, a nice guy. Just...lazy, entitled, spoiled, disrespectful, manipulative and ungrateful - with some additional drug and anger management issues. He's stolen from us...but to my knowledge not from other people. He's not been in jail. He's not abused anyone. He can swear a blue streak, but not at us...more in general. If my son ever raised a hand to me my husband would clean his clock, I'm certain of it. I'm pretty darn sure my son is too, which may very well be why he's never done so no matter how angry he was. One time only, when we were bickering, he made a remark to me, "I don't know why you have to be such a b***h." I would have smacked him myself, but he ducked. After we both calmed down I told him, "If you EVER call me any name ever again, you will leave this house and not come back." He never has. He seems to understand that name calling and getting physical with us is a line he can't cross.

It's mostly the ingratitude. It's like everything he's been given is just his due...like we owe him something. Of course, all the lies and spending our "job hunting" gas money running around and doing God knows what this past month - now that he's sorry and he's not going to do it anymore and he's trying to get a job seriously now - it's just supposed to be water under the bridge and we're supposed to put it behind us and trust him again.

I hope we can some day and that all this is a product of immaturity that he will outgrow with some life experience. I hope. I expect he will always be as manipulative as he can get away with though.

 

[Childofmine]

Lil, I just want to say that I think what you are doing, the back and forth, try a little of this, and a little of that, trying to be reasonable and changing with the situations he presents---I think all of that is simply....part of the journey. It is necessary. It is another step on the road to his becoming an adult---what kind of adult we don't know yet, but an adult.

Maybe, if it is to be, he will get his act together and get on a good path.

And then maybe, if it is to be, you will know that you tried everything in the world, no stone left unturned, and still nothing was changed.

It basically takes this.

It takes this kind of crazy dance, you leading and then them leading and both trying to follow, and a bunch of missed steps and mashed toes, to get there. Where-ever there is.

So......I would not take too much of this to heart. Try not to let it crush you. It is part of it. What you are doing is walking the road, Lil. And it is hard.

This is a parent's love for her son and his trying to figure his life out and what is next for him.

It's ugly. With our kids on this board, a lot of this is very ugly. And sad, and hard, and painful, and so many things.

If you can, even for a moment, try to see it from 40,000 feet. The aerial view. Take a big giant step back and try to look at it.

And then give yourself kudos, compassion and a lot of high fives for simply hanging in there, and trying.

Someday, the smoke will start to clear, and you'll say: Oh, THAT's why all of that happened. You won't laugh about it, Lil, or even smile, because it's been way too hard for that, but you'll start to see some meaning in it all.

Sleep well tonight, Lil. We're here for you.

 

[Lil]

We're actually all settling in to watch a TV show in a moment...having him NOT connected to Direct TV in his room has been a good thing. He used to literally not come out, he'd watch the same show we were but in his room. He does tend to stay there on his computer still, but if there's a show he wants to watch (and we have similar tastes in shows) he has to actually come watch with us. Gives us at least some time together and we often discuss the show, if it was interesting, afterwards.

If I had my son to raise all over again, I'd do so much differently. I know a few moms of very little boys now and if they ask for words of wisdom (LOL) I tell them, don't let him have his own computer or TV, make him do chores (mine actually did do set chores, but we never made him do yard work with us, etc.), cut off the allowance and make them get jobs, etc., etc., etc. Because I know part of his "I'm so entitled" attitude comes from us, how we raised him. He was such a difficult kid, we tended to be easy on him, trying to make him happy. Silly us...we just thought he'd realize how easy he had it, and how much better off he was than his friends. Crazy, huh?

But what I really wanted to say was: THANK YOU LADIES SO MUCH! I really, really, can't tell you how much it means to me to be able to come here and vent and get your truly wonderful advice. God bless you all.

It really has been a pretty good weekend, relatively speaking.

 

[SeekingStrength]

Lil,

Your posts remind me of husband and my 33gfg. When he was 17-19, we would set boundaries (because we knew he was not being fair), then waffle out of guilt. He blamed us for all his circumstances... and we would give in here and there. We thought it small stuff, now not so sure. When he finally moved out, our lives suddenly became golden.

Fast forward....15 years later. He has not matured, still blaming us - last we heard -- no contact in 6 mos.

He has done jail/prison time seven years ago (our fault).

I do not know how it may turn out for your son, but hope for the best. Just, please, please be wary of enabling a kid who does not choose to make good choices/build a life for himself/expects his parents to fix things.

I would not wish on anybody how it went for us. And, i must add, that we have two other adult kids who have never pulled any of the difficult child stuff. They have just plowed on, never blaming, never expecting....just moving forward, doing what needs to be done.

Please, have no guilt. It holds all of you back.

Hugs. Keep posting. There is progress. Wish husband and I had made as much progress decades ago. It can get worse if you do not stay on track.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, I don't know your son. I thought, wrongly and I'm so sorry, that you were saying your son isn't a nice guy. Many of our adult children aren't nice; some are simply different now that they use drugs. I apologize for getting it wrong. My own son, sadly, is not a nice person. I judge that by how little he cares for anyone but himself. My son has nothing to do with your son. If I upset you, that was not my intent. I'm so sorry!!!!

My son was both not very nice, manipulative, and coddled by me. But I think underneath he has inherited his personality traits. I raised all my children the same and he is the only one with that attitude...grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. But that is MY son, not yours. Again, so sorry. I misunderstood.

 

[Lil]

Oh my MWM, don't apologize! You didn't upset me in the slightest! I said "relatively", lol. No...he can be quite personable when he wants to be (which isn't very often), but there's nothing "nice" about being an ungrateful, manipulative brat! Not physically assaulting or verbally abusing others doesn't make you nice. That's like saying my ex was a good husband because he didn't beat me...and ignoring the refusing to work and cheating on me. "Nice" people actually care about someone besides themselves. "Nice" people show a little remorse when they've hurt someone and are understanding of how their actions affect others. "Nice" people don't scream and put their fists through doors when things don't go their way, they don't spend thousands of either their parents or their own borrowed money on school to just not go, they don't lie about everything, they don't steal, especially not from the people who love them. "Nice" people don't just assume everything should be forgiven, no matter what they've done.

So no, I don't think he's a "nice" person...just nicer than he could be.

I think my point was that I realize I actually haven't had as severe of problems as many of you and I recognize that. He hasn't been in jail, or lived on the streets (at least not for more than a week and then he was more couch-surfing). He hasn't threatened or attempted to harm himself. He hasn't harmed others. He is not, as far as I can tell, into "serious" drugs...at least he's taking a test for a job interview today, so apparently not. His drug of choice seems to be pot, real or synthetic (which I believe does not show on a drug test), and he's definitely cut way, way back. His actions, and occasionally his words, are disrespectful and hurtful, but not generally hateful or mean toward us.

Kind of a sad way to count your blessings, listing all the things that could be worse, huh?

So...today may be factory day. He's been told to text when he goes, and I'll gps his phone to make sure he goes. The mileage to the place is estimated (my husband drives by it on his way to work) and ... well we'll see.

 

[Lil]

...aaaannnnd today is apparently not factory day.

But he has heard, as of this morning, from a temp agency that has a temp-to-hire office position. They called and talked with him since he sent a resume' which highlights his office/computer skills. He had almost two full years of tech school computer training in high school (got enough credits to graduate in March 2013 and so didn't go the last quarter - missed out on certification in computer tech by ONE class - this was kind of in the midst of his stoner time...right when all the stealing started and such). So he knows Microsoft office and excel and all the other office applications very, very well, even do some programming, design web pages, even build computers from their individual components. He also types about 100 wpm. He said they questioned his lack of employment for a year and he told them he went to college but decided it wasn't for him and kind of bummed around after that, had one very short-term job he didn't even bother putting on the resume'.

I guess that didn't faze them...he has an interview Thursday. Tuesday I'm taking him shopping...he acknowledged he needs interview clothes. Our senior office assistant here is a young man and I talked to him about clothing...he recommends at least a button down and tie. Yeash, getting my kid into real clothes ought to be interesting to say the least.

Really, an office job, boring as data entry and such is, would be a good fit for him and even if it turns out to just be temp, maybe he'll do a good enough job that he can get more that way. At the least, it'll be a job and something on his resume'. As he said to me himself, "It's not assembling sandwiches."

(And yes, I reminded him his lack of experience may well lead to assembling sandwiches anyway...but he's actually kind of trying.)

 

[Lil]

Update!

Since last Saturday, when I sat him down and told him I was going to try not to run his life anymore and to treat him like an adult, things have actually been much better; much less stressful. My husband commented on it last night. It's that noticeable. I don't know that my son has actually done anything differently. I think it's more that I feel differently. It's not wondering if he's taking a shower or brushing his teeth or looking for work...it's just - different. I suppose some has to be my son, because if it were just me, my husband wouldn't have said how much better it's been.

He hasn't done a lot of looking for a job. He hasn't used the car or gotten a penny. He put in those applications Sunday and heard from the one Monday. I took him shopping and got decent clothes to interview in Tuesday, just slacks and a dress shirt and he's going to wear a tie of his dads (pre-tied, he'll have to learn that someday lol.)

His interview is at 11. Fingers crossed ladies!

 

[Lil]

...and his interview has been moved to tomorrow. Why does this keep happening? The first people didn't show and never even called him back and now his interview is rescheduled to tomorrow...seems so unprofessional.

So yeah, he just called and is in a mood. Wants to "help his friend" - the same one I thought we got rid of but apparently didn't - but can't without a car. I told him, "No, you can't. J will have to take care of himself, I'm sorry."

At least he wasn't yelling, just grumpy.

I think I won't take his calls today.

 

[Albatross]

Good for you, Lil, for all of it! I hope tomorrow goes well.