I HATE MONEY

[dstc_99]

Lordy! I think it is time to not answer phone calls, emails, or texts so you can get something done. I would tell him unless someone is bleeding or dying not to call. Then I would tell him everytime he called, texted, or emailed during the day and interrupted me he would lose the car for another day.

At this point you are a form of entertainment. Some one to give him something to do all day long while he is bored. If you stop entertaining his issues he will stop bothering you. Trust me I am currently doing this with my difficult child. I read the texts but I dont answer them until lunch time or time to leave. I see the calls but I check the voicemail to see if she left a message saying it was an emergency. THANK GOD she doesnt have my email.

I let her dad handle her issues. Personally I think he should cut her off too but I learned a while ago that he didn't understand my stance. So I respect his decision to handle it his way and I stay out of it unless it negatively effects me. Otherwise I see it as his decision and he can deal with the drama/consequences related to it.

 

[Lil]

I'm actually very glad he sent the email so I could post it on here and give you all a good look at what he's like.

You are right MWM...he's very immature. I've said before he wants to act like he's 12, only with all the adult joys of a driver's license and smoking and sex and R-rated movies.

You see why he wears me out.

This all or nothing attitude is prevalent with him. Everything is fine or his life sucks and nothing will make it better. (Except apparently us giving him what he wants.)

 

[Childofmine]

Most of our difficult children here on this board are very immature.

And if they are using drugs, their forward development is completely arrested from the time they start using.

I estimate my difficult child is about, oh, say, 15, maturity-wise, and he's 25.

Immature people need a constant audience for their list of how the world owes them, and they didn't do anything to cause this, and I just need to relax, and I'm not having any fun at all, and I'm tired, and I tried applying for that one job and I didn't get it so I'll never get a job and on and on.

Lil, bless you, you have to somehow put a stop to this constant barrage at work.

And he is going to have to do something to fill up his time and start taking responsibility.

He does need counseling and then he needs a job and then he needs to keep the job and then he needs to pay rent to you, even if it's $20 a week. The only way to become responsible is to be responsible.

If he's using drugs at all, I would say none of the above will have a prayer of working.

If he continues like this, there won't be anybody who will house him for any length of time. That is how my difficult child ended up homeless. He couldn't make it anywhere, and finally, even his parents had had enough.

It's going to take a lot of "No" from you and husband to start the process. Clear, consistent rules that you stick to, and he is primarily going to have to get busy and stay busy. Also, refuse to listen to all of this "stuff" and just like someone else said, develop several short, clear responses that put a stop to all of it: I'm sorry you're in this situation. I"m sure you will figure it out. Good luck honey. Oh. Wow. That sounds interesting.

And then walk away. Giving this an audience is keeping it going. Also, there was a lot of manipulation in that email, and how sorry he is. If he's sorry, change the behavior. Talk isn't going to do it. He needs to start hearing that from you, in few words.

He needs to be busy outside your home, as I am sure you know, listening and being accountable to other people.

If he gets a job and then loses it, then he's SOL. And that's on him.

And if it's any consolation, this is exactly what my difficult child was doing about 4 years ago. It was never ending, exhausting and I felt like I was literally strangling. He never would stop.

It was substance abuse and all of the behaviors that come with it.

I'm sorry. I feel for you. I remember those days. And they were awful.

 

[Lil]

Thank you all. I need to get home now. I really don't want to.

 

[BusynMember]

I'm actually very glad he sent the email so I could post it on here and give you all a good look at what he's like.

You are right MWM...he's very immature. I've said before he wants to act like he's 12, only with all the adult joys of a driver's license and smoking and sex and R-rated movies.

You see why he wears me out.

This all or nothing attitude is prevalent with him. Everything is fine or his life sucks and nothing will make it better. (Except apparently us giving him what he wants.)

But you can change this, by changing your behavior toward him. He needs to get less to no attention when he acts twelve. The law, if he breaks it, won't care if he is mentally twelve. He is looking to be disruptive. Don't let him. It isn't that hard to learn how to put your cell phone setting on vibrate and not carry it around or to look at your call waiting if you have a house phone and not answer the phone if it is him. You can hang up on him the minute he gets rude. I warned 36 that I'd do that and I don't think he believed me until I did it constantly. At first we had no conversations at all because I was very consistent once I got too tired of the anger and blah-blahing to listen. He rose his voice, I hung up. He swore, I hung up. He asked for anything, I hung up. He talked about what a rotten mother I was *click.* Eventually he got the message and we can actually talk now, but I still hang up if he starts to get abusive. I practice zero tolerance too. I found that giving him an inch was like giving him the world.

You do not have to follow what his life is like. Don't spy on FB or his cell phone. Those days are fine when a child is still a minor a nd you have control over him, but not as an adult. Half of what he writes is probably nonsense anyway so why even bother? I would stick to a few main themes for your own sanity and to teach him to be responsible:

1/If he is doing drugs, he can not live at home or he has to go to rehab until he is in remission of his addiction an d no longer hanging out with these fun drug using friends he likes so much.

2/No driving at all in your car if he is not sober. My kid was in three accidents while high. Only the first one was our vehicle. I couldn't help it that her friends were dumb enough to let her drive, but at least it was not on our insurance as she was by then over eighteen.

3/Absolutely insist he get a job, or volunteer five days a week at many of the various places who desperately need volunteers, or say good-bye. There is no reason for somebody his age not to be busy every day, like an adult. Volunteering is flexible. It gives him job skills and also, since it IS volunteering, if he has a job interview, he can go and not worry about taking time off. Volunteering gives him a taste of responsibility and working. There is no reason for him to game so much or hang out with his equally bored drug using peers.

Other people have used other methods. I know somebody here (not sure who and maybe I'll get the details wrong) I think her adult child has to leave the house when she goes to work and is not allowed back in until she gets home. I like volunteering better, but I also like that this parent is not allowing her adult to lay around all day, texting, or whatever they do when they have nothing to do.

Constant fun is not real life. Constant fun on your dime is definitely not real life. I'd personally (and I know not everyone will agree) would insist he volunteer if he "can't" get a job and not allow him to hang out at all until he could pay for it. He probably is up to no good when he is hanging out. The car? Hahahaha. Not while you're using drugs. Not until you can pay for gas and help with insurance. Not until you are employed.

Maybe I'm tougher than some others, but I did all this with a serious mental illness and don't believe that coddling the adult child, no matter what the problem is, helps them grow up. In fact, I believe it makes them continue to need parenting and is not productive. JMO.

 

[4now]

You'll get better at it.

Just a warning though..picking up SOMETIMES is a serrious reinforcement to his behavior..unpredictable reinforcement creates the hardest behaviors to extinguish (I think that is an old Skinner rat experiment...he gave rates food everytime they pressed a lever...then he stopped. The ones he stopped consistently with gave up on lever pressing after few tries. If he gave them food after 5 presses, then again after 11 more...they continued pressing for weeks).

So you set yourself up for prolonging the aggravation...but I do understand.

Echo

Echo, love the info you shared on the Skinner rat experiment I vaguely remember that from my psychiatric classes. It makes so much sense. I would like or give thumbs up but I haven't figured out how to do that yet

 

[Lil]

You can hang up on him the minute he gets rude. I warned 36 that I'd do that and I don't think he believed me until I did it constantly. At first we had no conversations at all because I was very consistent once I got too tired of the anger and blah-blahing to listen. He rose his voice, I hung up. He swore, I hung up. He asked for anything, I hung up.

I actually would have less of a problem if he got rude or angry. He's just upset. Like near tears, "I'm at the end of my rope, my life is awful" upset.

When he gets in these moods there's no getting him out of them. Any suggestion, exercise, TV, volunteering, eating, napping, taking a walk, play on the Wii, all get shot down. Which would be fine except he won't let it go. He won't shut up. He talks and talks and talks and there's nothing you can say.

It's exactly like when he was three and throwing a tantrum. If I'd try to pick him up he'd push me away. If I tried to walk away he'd grab my legs. (rinse and repeat)

That's what our night has been for the most part. It's "I have nothing. I called everyone I know and no one texted me back. All I said was I wanted to hang out but no one talked to me. I'm so alone. I have no one to talk to. I can't take a car so anyone who would hang out, I can't get to because it's too far to walk." ad nauseam. And knowing that this will all change when he gets work and then again has car access changes NOTHING. Because it's NEVER going to change when he's in these moods.

You do not have to follow what his life is like. Don't spy on FB or his cell phone.

I don't do that. We are FB friends, but I've actually asked him to block me from posts he knows I don't want to see.

I don't actually think that drugs are the issue here. Yes, I do think he would love to smoke pot. He's not, because he knows he might need a drug test to get work. Although the term "dry drunk" comes to mind. Tonight he mentioned wanting to sit in the car and clean his pipe. (Apparently he finds that meditative.) I almost had a FIT...I kept my cool...but I don't know what exactly to do there, since he's not smoking at the moment...but he was told that there is to be NOTHING in our home so he better be getting rid of it.

Finally about 7:15 my husband and I made the excuse of going to empty the dehumidifiers at the church (we work part-time as the custodians of our church) and go get some food. We actually did need to, but it's hardly a two-person job - we just both needed desperately to get away from him. We actually considered crashing the CODA meeting that meets Thursdays at our church...but it was 25 minutes in and that seemed wrong. Anyway, we never got food, husband is cooking now because I just don't care.

He was in a better mood when we got back...but it's iffy. He's still very ticked at his "friends" who are ignoring him and his computer is acting up. But he's quit talking to us. This is an improvement.

It's been a long night.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil...he is not a little boy anymore. I'd hang up on my son if he started with "poor me" as well as if he was abusive. I don't want to give into his rants about his lousy life, which is his own doing. I won't listen.

Don't be so sure he's not on drugs. There are drugs that don't show up on drug tests.

Lil, one way or another he has to grow up and you need to separate from him. If not, both of you will be caught in a neverending fatal embrace. Do you want this going on when he is 40? 50? Some parents refuse to let go and they never do. Some have no lives at all until the end of theirs because they are 80 and their 60 year old "poor son" lives with them and they feel badly for him.

At this point, it is your decision how you want to react to your son's childish behavior. I'm sure he knows that talking about how he has no friends etc. makes you feel sorry for him and it may not be true. He's a little bit old to cry and bumble about his life that HE made rotten and that is not something I personally would listen to considering he won't get any help. Enough is enough. He needs to grow up and he can, but you have to let him by letting go.

I wish you luck. This is going to be an especially hard trip for you, if you decide to take it. Letting go is hard, but doable. But one has to want to do it and get sane just like our grown kids need to DESIRE TO get clean before they do. It is a choice we all make or don't make. If you want to do it, we are here, 24/7, 365 days a year. We are always on call.

P.S.--Maybe his friends are doing what you can't...staying away from him due to his behavior. Or maybe they work, go to school, have social lives and are busy and will answer him when they have time. Few 18-21 year old young adults are free all the time to answer texts.

 

[Albatross]

That's what our night has been for the most part. It's "I have nothing. I called everyone I know and no one texted me back. All I said was I wanted to hang out but no one talked to me. I'm so alone. I have no one to talk to. I can't take a car so anyone who would hang out, I can't get to because it's too far to walk." ad nauseam. And knowing that this will all change when he gets work and then again has car access changes NOTHING. Because it's NEVER going to change when he's in these moods.

Lil, I'm just curious. If (and please don't, but IF) you were to say "OK, that IS bad, take the car tonight to go visit your friends," do you think his mood would change?

 

[Lil]

Lil, I'm just curious. If (and please don't, but IF) you were to say "OK, that IS bad, take the car tonight to go visit your friends," do you think his mood would change?

Don't know. Might. Might not. It's hard to tell with him. I actually offered to DRIVE him to his friends and pick him back up like he was 15...just to shut him up. He just went on then about how his friend never texted him back so he couldn't go anyway. So...probably not.

These moods are just exhausting.

At this point, it is your decision how you want to react to your son's childish behavior. I'm sure he knows that talking about how he has no friends etc. makes you feel sorry for him and it may not be true. He's a little bit old to cry and bumble about his life that HE made rotten and that is not something I personally would listen to considering he won't get any help. Enough is enough. He needs to grow up and he can, but you have to let him by letting go.

You're preaching to the choir! I WANT him to stop this stuff! We just did the nod and "uh-huh" and "Sorry you had a bad day." Didn't actually give any advice to speak of. Didn't try to run his life. Did the "this too will pass" thing.

For what it's worth...he did go on and on about how all this is all his fault. He screwed up. He lied. He betrayed our trust. He didn't look for work. He blew his student loans and didn't go to college. He brought it on himself. Just more for him to feel bad about and dwell on.

Now you'd never know he was like that! He was in a somewhat better mood when I got back from church. At this point he's perfectly normal, even in a good mood. Been posting funny memes on Facebook. All smiles over some song.

This is what my original post when he came back from college was really about. Being afraid he has some actual mental disorder, bipolar or something. He'll be just fine, then something will happen and he'll be so down and moody and whiney and on and on and then he'll be hyper and bouncy. Then it's back to just normal. I expect tomorrow he'll be fine. But days like this exhaust me completely...and yet I can't sleep. When he first came home it was a solid WEEK of not bathing or brushing his teeth...he was just so blah.

If I sit down to try to talk to him...tomorrow or when his mood isn't black...it gets blown off.

I need to try to get some sleep...I don't see it happening any time soon though I'm exhausted. See you tomorrow ladies.

 

[Albatross]

These moods are just exhausting.

I know they are, Lil. You need and deserve a break.

In my humble opinion (based only on what I read here) he is catastrophizing and you are buying into it by indulging it when you listen to it to the point of exhaustion and then basically tell him (such as when you offer to drive him to his friend's house) that you will give him what he wants if he just goes away.

It's a very hard cycle to break, believe me, I know. I don't know much, but I know that.

It might be worthwhile to make sure nothing organic's going on, like a thyroid or vitamin deficiency, and ask the doctor about something to smooth things out a little for him.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, my very tired and weary-minded friend, you can't help him. He needs professional help. Trust me, I know how much you love him and that you'd do anything to help him, but this is out of our arenas. If your son has a mental illness, on top of drug abuse, then he is the one who has to go for help for both issues and work very hard to improve both. Easy? Id oubt it. I just had a horrible mood disorder, probably since I was first born. I think I was born depressed. Very depressed. I did not have classic manic/depression. Although I had a few highs, they were not psychotic highs. I was more depressed or in a mixed state...happy and sad at the same time...now THAT is a terrible feeling. I had depersonalization and derealization...the feeling of being in a dream. Scariest symptom evah!!!!

Lil, I decided very early never to drink or do drugs because I was already so screwed up I didn't want to make it worse. I have never been drunk and tried pot about six times and it made me paranoid and scared. That was the end of my drug experimentation. I went for help young, took my medication as prescribed, was in the hospital for TEN WEEKS while pregnant (I often wonder if that did not affect my son I call 36) and had post partum. It took me ten years to find the medications that helped me the most, but I went to self-help groups, read any new books on how to overcome depression, and never quit trying, but it was tiring and so hard and sometimes I did feel like giving up. But nobody could have helped me. My parents were absent, which was just as good. There was nothing they could have done. In fact hearing "You can do it!" or "Get off the pity pot!" just made me want to jump off a cliff because my depressions were biological and I would have done cartwheels for three days if that would have cured me. I had to take my own walk. Antidepressants kept me going, although maybe 50%. During that time I worked on and off. I have serious learning disabilities and got fired a lot for making too many mistakes, but I never stopped trying to get another job.

Finally I found a magic pill that took away my depression!! Then I was able to utilize therapy to the fullest and have ever since. During all this time, my husband and family were not there for me. Professionals and my self-healp groups got me through it and my stubborn personality which refused to give up on me. This is what your son has to develop. He has to stop any drugs he is taking AND drinking first and then you will see if he is mentally ill. It often looks li ke there is mental illness on top of drug abuse and there often is, but not always. My daughter who took drugs is fine now that she quit the drugs.

This is a terribly hard walk but only your son can take it. I don't think it would have helped me if I had called my mom and she would have listeneed to me crying about how I screwed up while I was still screwing up. What helps is action to change your life and it can be a long, hard ride. My therapists were more apt to tell me coping skills and that feeling sorry for myself would not help me. I took that to heart.

Here's hoping that your son will decide to take that path to wellness. Understand, though, as hard as it is to do, that you can't do it for him. He has to make his own appointments. If he is prescribed medication, he has to take it as prescribed. He can not drink or do any drugs because doing that negates the good that the prescription drugs are trying to do and they will not help him. If he is unwilling to take this hard walk, you can either be that mom who has her son crying to her when he is 60 years old and you are 80 or you can decide to move on with your own life and enjoy your loved ones who are healthy and do the things you love to do. You don't desert your son in your heart, but you realize that it is his journey to take, and that until he decides to work very hard to get well, he won't. Don't let him take you down with him. You are two separate people and you do not have to be miserable just because he is choosing not to help himself and to feel sorry for himself. He needs a psychiatrist, a therapist and a drug counselor and he needs to listen to all of them.

Dear Lil, I wish you a serene and peaceful day. Do something possitively sinful today, like eat a double fudge sundae with whip cream and cherries on top Think about yourself and how precious you are and how much you matter. Your life is as important as your son's. He is not more important than you are. (((Hugs))).

 

[Childofmine]

Lil all of the poor mouthing is manipulation, in my humble opinion.

Do not listen to it anymore. Giving it an audience is keeping it going.

And I am sorry but you have no idea if he is using drugs or not. You said early on that he has used and hangs out with stoners. And he wants to clean his pipe to relax.....!!!!!

Lil I KNOW how hard it is to be around someone like this. You have to be the one to change the pattern because he will not without treatment and help.

Keep it simple lil. Start with the phone today. Small steps. Write it down so you can stick to it when the craziness starts.


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[Lil]

In my humble opinion (based only on what I read here) he is catastrophizing and you are buying into it by indulging it when you listen to it to the point of exhaustion and then basically tell him (such as when you offer to drive him to his friend's house) that you will give him what he wants if he just goes away.

Well...what he wanted, without saying it in so many words, was an allowance and car access. He even came right out and said he'd give us his first paycheck. We said no. The offer to drive him was to shut him up...you're right. It was, "This is as good as it gets. Take it or leave it."

My therapists were more apt to tell me coping skills and that feeling sorry for myself would not help me.

He's ALWAYS been like this. His babysitter's when he was a toddler and young child said he was the most stubborn and dramatic child they'd ever seen. We thought he'd outgrow it, and he has in part. The black moods like yesterday are actually fairly few. Maybe once every few weeks...sometimes much more frequently. Only once has he ever been so down that it frightened us when he was 18 and left home over stealing. Came home a week later broke, freezing, having sold his laptop for cash and apparently getting the money stolen. We basically forced him into the ER and then therapy...but he lied to the therapist and wouldn't take the antidepressants then left for college a few months later. We'd thought things were better...a lot went into that college decision, but my point is...he's never been so down for such a long time we considered it depression or bipolar.

You're right though. He's 19 and he has to be open to therapy for it to do any good. I've told him over and over that he doesn't handle things well and he needs a therapist, not a mother who's a lawyer, to give him better ideas on how to cope.

Dear Lil, I wish you a serene and peaceful day. Do something possitively sinful today, like eat a double fudge sundae with whip cream and cherries on top

Actually, I'm leaving work about 11, having lunch with old friends and getting my hair cut. Since I don't have to work and don't want to be home...I think I'll find something else fun to do.

 

[Lil]

Do not listen to it anymore. Giving it an audience is keeping it going.
And I am sorry but you have no idea if he is using drugs or not. You said early on that he has used and hangs out with stoners. And he wants to clean his pipe to relax.....!!!!!

About the drugs...I'm certain he isn't doing anything that shows in a drug test. That's actually all I can say. He may be smoking that synthetic crap that is worse...but not at home. After what I lived through last summer, I'm pretty darn sure I can tell when he's high. But I can't do anything when he's not under my roof really...I mean, I could drug test...but so do jobs which is why I'm sure he isn't doing anything that shows in a drug test. Clearly he wants to and intends to do it in the future. But right now all I can do is take comfort in the fact that it's lessened.

Not listening would be soooo much easier if I could get away from him without physically leaving my house! After about an hour last night, my husband and I went to walk the dog, fully intending to smoke a cigarette and putter in the garden for a few minutes, just for a break. He followed us. We went in and then he was all mad because I wasn't listening.

I swear, and I said it to him last night, it's just like when he was 3 and having a tantrum and if I picked him up he'd pull away and if I put him down he'd grab me and not let go...until I tried to pick him up again and then he'd pull away!

Well...today is his interview - I hope - and hopefully it will go well. If so...tonight we'll try to have a talk with him and tell him that, while we love him and don't want him to be upset, he has to quit this drama. It won't be the first time we've had this talk. But he's not getting money or the darn car for anything but work until he earns money for gas himself!

Maybe this time it will stick.

And ladies....thank you so, so, SO MUCH for listening and ... everything. I know you all have your own challenges, some of which make mine look minor, and it means the world to me to have this place to vent. God bless you all.

 

[Childofmine]

Hang in there Lil. One day at a time. We're here for you. Warm hugs and have a great day today!

 

[SeekingStrength]

Hi Lil,

Hoping the job interview goes very well.

That synthetic pot stuff is bad. When I found this forum, my 32 yo son's girlfriend had just told me that difficult child was smoking Spice daily. That had become more important to him than anything. Just a few days earlier, difficult child had become very angry with me because I would not Western Union him $20 one Sunday night.

Most of what I ran across on the Internet about Spice pointed it out as being way more serious than I ever dreamed. ....and it can be a personality changer for the user.

You probably know way more about synthetic pot than I did....I was shocked.

Perhaps because I was a fairly regular user of pot decades ago and never HAD to have money for it, never suffered because of it. I thought synthetic pot was similar. You are correct when you say it is scarier stuff.


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[Lil]

Well, I had hoped he'd be in a good mood today, but he's back to bad. I had to call and tell him where to find the car keys, since I forgot to put them out for him this morning. He's already freaking out and his job interview isn't until 1:00. I told him that he can do this! Worst case scenario, he doesn't get a job. He's no worse off and he'll learn something from the interview. Told him to try to take a deep breath, chill and just keep telling himself that, no matter how it turns out, it'll be okay. He's smart, he's capable, and he can do this.

I don't think he believes me. He's scared. That's all this is. He's afraid he won't get the job. He's afraid he will get the job. He's just scared. Everyone goes through this when they first start out in the work force...just usually they are older than this.

Planning on making this the last call today. Finger's crossed that he calms down.

 

[Lil]

Well, it was a rough morning, but HE GOT THE JOB! Should start next Tuesday. Was told if he hadn't heard by then to call.

I had a nice, two-martini lunch with friends who completely understand. One has a bi-polar, drug addicted daughter and one an alcoholic brother who's daughter she is raising. Then got my hair cut. Now I think I'll just bum around for a bit.

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[Lil]

Okay...should probably say he most likely got the job. That is to say they told him he's going on the temp register and they are sending his resume' to the department (state government) that is hiring. I also work for the state and asked our senior clerk who does the hiring how that works. She said they usually just have temp agencies say, "we have this person we can send you" but some departments might want to see the resume to make sure the person has the skills they need and make sure it isn't someone they've had before that didn't work out. But she says it sounds like a done deal and he'll start the following week.

Fingers crossed.

We had an unpleasant morning. I ended up with two emails, much like yesterdays but shorter. Finally I responded and just basically said, "STOP IT! I know you are scared. Growing up and entering the workforce can be scary. But you'll get past it. You'll be fine. I'm going to get my hair done, text me when you are done."

He called 4x while I was at lunch. Don't know what he wanted, because I missed the calls. But he didn't leave messages and I didn't call him because I figured he was in the interview and that he'd text, like I said. He called as I was leaving the hairdresser.

He asked if he could take the car. I discussed it with my husband and we said, in light of the successful interview and just because the friend is probably moving, and under the condition that he NOT ask again until he gets his own gas money, he could go. This is a one time deal. Just the car, no cash, and no running all over creation...we WILL be checking the mileage. (He's only got 1/4 tank of gas anyway.) Then I went to happy hour with friends and my husband joined us. We had pizza, hubby drove me home since I just don't drink much and two at happy hour on top of two at lunch was enough to not be stupid when the car could be left parked. We're settled in and having a quiet evening.

Here's hoping it remains that way...at least for today.

Thank you ladies again for seeing me through this.