the ball is in his court??

[Copabanana]

i want to thank you.

he says he's coming tomorrow.

turn's out what i thought last night was a crisis was his feeling sorry for himself because there were too many people traveling on the metro for him to sleep.

he was texting. he just put he was having a neurotic/psychotic break. and what it was was he was tired and irritated people were traveling for bona fide reasons.

so. he did call this morning. sleeping in a 24 hour gym. says "mom. i can't progress here where i am. i checked out the train and will buy a ticket for tomorrow."

i know he is ambivalent. good. that may mean he knows we will not play ball. it may also mean he wants this to be temporary. that he knows he does not like it here and will take the offer as it was presented. a pit stop. until he comes up with a plan.

he wants autonomy.

i agree with all of you. everybody illuminates a facet of our situation.

let me briefly say where i am now.

i feel grateful i offered he come home. i want to be connected to him. i want him to feel he has us. i want him to know that this is a conversation. that a relationship is a conversation. and that ours will be lifelong. and beyond.

i am growing.

new leaf. the pain was searing but i am stronger than i was. ( i took a sleeping pill and tranquilizer too and by the time i woke he had called. i'm lucky i woke up.)

i am studying my faith. a pivotal figure from 1700 is called the besht. one of his followers came to him frantic with worry.

rebbe. i am afraid my son is moving away from the faith. what should i do?

love him more, replied the besht.

that is how i am trying to live now. this late in the game i cannot do much to teach my son. to change him. only he can. if he wants.

i can decide on my own life and home.

and i can love my son. welcome him and let him go when it is time.

he is proud of himself how he has endured. it is good he left.

he was homeless maybe a month of the four. in part because it is such a high cost area. he did choose not to stay in the car again because it was too dirty. he may be raising the bar. maybe not. time will tell.

i know my son does not want to be homeless. but he also does not consistently do what it takes to avoid it. yet.

i see my job now as trying to learn how to let him work this out. (thank you each of you for being with me as i do. )

i see my son as having many strengths. i am seeing that in a number of important ways he is stronger than am i. i have to hold onto that. that my panic and fear is about me. as much or more than about him.

he is handling him. i see that.

thank you everybody.

let's see if he shows up.

 

[Copabanana]

i am anxious. feel vulnerable. not sure if it's about him, his vulnerability, anxiety about his return or anxieties based on my own health and life.

just want to curl up in bed.

this all takes so much out of me. life.

 

[Littleboylost]

i am anxious. feel vulnerable. not sure if it's about him, his vulnerability, anxiety about his return or anxieties based on my own health and life.

just want to curl up in bed.

this all takes so much out of me. life.

It does indeed take so much out of us. Be kind and good to yourself. A nice warm bath and a good book.

 

[New Leaf]

new leaf. the pain was searing but i am stronger than i was. ( i took a sleeping pill and tranquilizer too and by the time i woke he had called. i'm lucky i woke up.)

Copa, I see so much progression in both of you as you both find your way through this.

i feel grateful i offered he come home. i want to be connected to him. i want him to feel he has us. i want him to know that this is a conversation. that a relationship is a conversation. and that ours will be lifelong. and beyond.

That is a beautiful description of a relationship, a conversation. I am glad you are able to have this with your son. I do hope that one day this will be so for my two. I continue to pray for that.

i am growing.

You most certainly are growing. Moving and doing. I remember when we were both going through a sort of paralysis with this, each in our own way. But I suppose that was a stage of learning as well. The hurt of it is difficult to work through.

love him more, replied the besht.

that is how i am trying to live now. this late in the game i cannot do much to teach my son. to change him. only he can. if he wants.

So true. I struggled with the term “unconditional love” I think that is what the story is about. My two see it as having them home, living as they wish. I see it as loving them, even as they go through the darkness of their choices, but knowing also it is not good for them or my household that they be here. I love them with all of my heart. It does not mean that I will not set boundaries. My challenge is how to start the “conversation” literally and figuratively. I know the answer will come soon enough. I also know that it can’t be at the expense of my peace and my life. Too much water under the bridge.

i can decide on my own life and home

Yes. Me too. The difference being, my Tornado has asked to “come home”, but, not to better her life, or ours. It has been to make it easier for her to continue as is. It has been heart breaking to say I love you, but you need to go to a shelter” “It hasn’t worked for you or us here” , but each time, I have to remind myself of the truth of those words. I have to recover from the sickening feeling at the pit of my stomach.
I’m not writing this to sway you in any way. I think I am working out why that “conversation” is not possible for my situation at this point in time? I hope and pray for it, but it is what it is for now.

i see my job now as trying to learn how to let him work this out. (thank you each of you for being with me as i do. )

Thank you for sharing your journey, we all learn from one another’s stories.
We are all finding our way in this world.
Different routes.
I went through the possibility in my mind while reading your posts that I had grown cold. Indifferent to my two. But I have not. I love them. But I won’t allow myself to be abused.
Reality is we all have our unique scenarios with our d cs. No one formula for all.
I think your son is at a much different juncture here.

i see my son as having many strengths. i am seeing that in a number of important ways he is stronger than am i. i have to hold onto that. that my panic and fear is about me. as much or more than about him.

For me, I have to work on not sinking into an abyss along with my two.
Reinforcing to myself that my emotions don’t have to mirror their current choices.
It’s hard. I sink, but catch myself a little faster than before.
It has been a long road for many of us.
I guess the trick is how to navigate the path without losing ourselves along the way.
Whatever way we choose.
I think we are finding ourselves, Copa.
And that’s a good thing.
I will pray for a good conversation between you and your son.
And hugs.
Hugs are good.
I hope you get to hug him.
Leafy

 

[Littleboylost]

I will pray for a good conversation between you and your son.
And hugs.
Hugs are good.
I hope you get to hug him.
Leafy

I have been sitting here feeling annoyed that my six has come to hang out with us all afternoon. He does not seem to be high and Leafy maybe I should just be grateful for his sober presence and hug him.

Copa we do what is in our hearts to endure. It is all we can do.

I am pleased my son has chosen our company and is not out using drugs.

Step my step.

 

[Copabanana]

new leaf. thank you. i am feeling a great deal of solace and support from your posts.

just a short response. i did not tell my son he could stay more than a limited time. i am not ready to accept him unconditionally. and i have no interest anymore in trying to impose conditions. i have no illusion that there is any more buy in now, then there was before.

so in this sense our situations are similar.

i plan on letting my son come up with what he will do.

we have another house that is a rental. there is the option of letting him live there (with m's brother in law who is stable and working and middle aged.) but i will not tolerate the marijuana. And i doubt he will give it up. and a key thing for us is productivity. and we will not give him work anymore for him to shirk. so i have little hope this will be an enduring thing.

if he wants to live one hundred percent on his terms it will not be near me. so same thing as you.

and i sink too. except for me there is terror which is as great or greater than the despair.

new leaf. i see your stance as loving, realistic and hopeful.

do you have teen/adult challenge where you live? when tornado asks again to come home can you give her that option? that is the program rn's son is in. it has an adult component. i think it is free.

ps. i will hug him.

 

[Littleboylost]

I have been sitting here feeling annoyed that my six has come to hang out with us all afternoon. He does not seem to be high and Leafy maybe I should just be grateful for his sober presence and hug him.

Copa we do what is in our hearts to endure. It is all we can do.

I am pleased my son has chosen our company and is not out using drugs.

Step my step.

That should read son not six

 

[New Leaf]

and i have no interest anymore of trying to impose conditions. i have no illusion that there is any more buy in now, as there was before.

That is the cross roads, because they will decide for themselves. Anyway.

so in this sense our situations are similar.
i plan on letting my son come up with what he will do.

Our situations are similar. I am glad for you that you are able to speak with your son and see him.

but i will not tolerate the marijuana. And i doubt he will give it up. and a key thing for us is productivity. and we will not give him work anymore for him to shirk. so i have little hope this will be an enduring thing.

It’s okay. He knows this and will have to figure it out, where he goes from there.
Who knows what will happen?

except for me there is terror which is as great or greater than the despair.

Is it the terror of what may be Copa?
What could happen?
I have had to swallow that down, for certainly the circumstances and surroundings my two place themselves in, puts them in harms way. I think “What if they die?” What would I do? How would I feel? How would I deal with it?
I met a woman who lost her 29 year old son recently in a plane crash. He wasn’t supposed to be on the plane, went on a last minute invitation. She and her husband heard of the accident, but didn’t know their son and his girlfriend were on the flight. It wasn’t until they didn’t come home that they slowly pieced it together.
I thought long and hard on that.
They were at the prime of their lives.
Doing wonderful things.
And here my two are out there......in dangerous situations at times, I am certain of that.
I remembered your post in which your Rabbi told you that life “happens”.
So simple, yet so true.
I somehow came upon an old hymn “It is Well with my Soul”.
Listened to it and wondered who wrote it. Researched a bit.
Though we are of different faith, I am mentioning this, because the man that wrote the hymn wrote it after suffering great loss in his life.
I am working on finding different mentors like Viktor Frankl and others who have come through the fires of life, strong and determined. Faithful.
I want to be able to say “It is Well with My Soul”.
There are days where I am feeling more peaceful.
Others not.
Lots to work on.

new leaf. i see your stance as loving, realistic and hopeful.

Thank you Copa. I do wrestle with my heart over this.

do you have teen/adult challenge where you live? when tornado asks again can you give her that option?

yes, there are many programs available. Unfortunately, she is not ready to admit to a problem. She goes into a rage at the mention of program, rehab, etc.
The last I heard from her, it was a rambling paranoid plan that I had to come and help grab her children from their paternal grandparents, they “wouldn’t let her see her kids” (abracadabra) etc. etc. etc., she was going to get them and go to a DV shelter (abracadabra).
Oh you’ve got me going, I should probably start my own thread.
Ahem.
Well, turns out, my grands are quite content where they are and want nothing to do with their mother. I had them for the summer and they were anxious to get back “home” to their grannies house before school started. No one had seen or heard from her for a few months.
Huh.
She devised a plan to which I HAD to come the next morning, grab the kids and their stuff. Even phoned their grandparents and told them I was coming.
I didn’t buy into it.
Talked with my grands. “We are okay Tutu, we want to stay where we are.”
She was more concerned about the EBT card which Grandma had (to feed the kids, which is what it is for). Long story short, she called the card in stolen, cutting her kids food money off so SHE could get a new one.
For HERSELF.

So, that is where we are at, for now.
Rain, seemingly content living in the park.
Okay.
It is well with my soul.
(Wishful thinking)
Now, I have son,16 wanting to drive.
I am terrified.
The what if’s and may be’s.
So unfair that my troubled, fearful over stimulated catastrophic Mothers alert would stall him from this threshold in life.
“Have you studied for your permit?”
He says no and I am relieved.
I know I have to get over it.
Hanging on the edge of what may be for my two is.......exhausting.
16 year old boy driving????
Aaaaaccckkk!
Oh I am ranting.
Sorry.
I will write down some information for Tornado and keep it close for if and when the time comes.
I will try not to think morbidly when there is news of tragedy in the areas my two hang out in.
Gulp.
If my son studies for his permit, I will reluctantly take him for the test.
Gulp.
He still hasn’t studied and I have to admit I am glad of it.
If I am off base on the terror, forgive me.
But, time and unforeseen circumstance may befall us all.
In between, we have to find ways to peace and joy.
And 16 year old boys learning how to drive.
Shudder.
It will be okay Copa.
You are doing so well despite some very hard realities.
Keep putting one foot in front the other.
One day at a time.
(((Hugs)))
Leafy

 

[New Leaf]

Leafy maybe I should just be grateful for his sober presence and hug him.

LBL, I think that is the very essence of detachment. Being able to show our kids love despite their choices, but also setting firm boundaries.
Preserving the sanctity of our homes.
I am glad he is sober.
Hug him tight.
Don’t stand for any shenanigans!
Hugs
Leafy

 

[Copabanana]

you nailed it new leaf.

my son has a chronic illness. but thank g-d he's back on medication.

and yes. i worry about danger.

i have been through so much these past five years. you see. my soul and i were etranged. i mean i was kind of living a false life. when i started feeling it was like a deluge. i thought i would die from the pain. i believe i almost did.

i fear if something happened to my son i would die or lose the will to live.

about 19 years ago my son and i were traveling in central america. a total of 4 mos in two trips. my son got deathly ill. there was inadequate or no medical care. (during hurricane mitch.) he had a fever near 110. you see. i was numb. i had nobody to help. we were in el salvador. not long after the civil war ended.

do you understand how turned off to my feelings and to danger i was--that i could put him in this kind of jeopardy?

and we lived like this for another 6 years or so. i thought it was adventure. he loved it. but it was madness.

so now i am filled with the terror i never allowed myself to feel. a lifetime of it.

thank you new leaf.

where is the post from lbl that her son is sober? great news.

 

[New Leaf]

LBL s Post is in purple above mine. Copa I understand turning off feelings. Going through the motions like a drugged actress.
Being so overwhelmed and numb and then,finding them again.
The dam breaks, flooded.
It is a shock to the system.

I am off to dinner.
I will write more later.
Hold tight.
You are going to be okay.
Leafy

 

[Littleboylost]

Oh my dear Copa

where is the post from lbl that her son is sober? great news.

Just for today when he was here to visit. Who knows where he is now. But I did hug him and appreciate his sober presence for today.

Were you in SA for a purpose or living there Copa. That is a tragic adventure and I am glad your Son and you both survived!

We do not know why these Children make he choices they do. We may never know.

I agree with Leafy learning to hug them and love them as they are with our boundaries intact, is the true art of detachment. It's exhausting.

I am exausted yet I can not sleep. Ugh!

Tomorrow is another day.

This has become my safe space and a true necessity for mental survival.

Keep us posted Copa and know we support you. Oh how I wish these beautify boys could leave the drugs behind and find there way to a more stable life.

 

[Copabanana]

i just lost a long post.

son is here. looks bad but mellow and thus far cooperative.

m alternating deep freeze and lecturing. stressful.

thank you.

i can see no lbl post.

until tomorrow.

 

[pasajes4]

Little, I am so happy that he was sober. That he came to visit and did not ask for anything. I think it is awesome that you can invite him in your home and not worry about him stealing from you.

 

[Littleboylost]

Little, I am so happy that he was sober. That he came to visit and did not ask for anything. I think it is awesome that you can invite him in your home and not worry about him stealing from you.

Passa it was nice. I still wonder if it wasn't out of coveneinece and that he simply hates where he is staying.

We do worry and we watch him carefully. We also put everything in the safe. It will be a long time if ever that we stop doing that.

He was respectful and clear headed so that is a good thing.

 

[pasajes4]

You sent him a Clear message when you did not back down. He was expecting to be able to abracadabra his ability to stay in your home by paying lip service about following the rules at home. It worked the first time. Hopefully this is his turning point.

 

[New Leaf]

i have been through so much these past five years. you see. my soul and i were estranged. i mean i was kind of living a false life. when i started feeling it was like a deluge. i thought i would die from the pain. i believe i almost did.

I am so relieved you survived Copa. There is a reason you are here on this earth. All throughout this site your wisdom and thoughtfulness speak volumes.You spent time working through your family history and dynamics, soul searching. Life happens, a simple truth, but it is so very complex. I think when we are faced with event after event of our d cs going off the rails, it drives us even further to review our own lives, trying to seek answers. It is grief work, really.I think people think of grief as something that happens when we lose our loved ones to death, but we grieve over other losses in life as well.

about 19 years ago my son and i were traveling in central america. a total of 4 mos in two trips. my son got deathly ill. there was inadequate or no medical care. (during hurricane mitch.) he had a fever near 110. you see. i was numb.

How utterly terrifying to go through this.
Your son survived. Hold on to that.

and we lived like this for another 6 years or so. i thought it was adventure. he loved it. but it was madness.

In looking back at my life, there are many instances I think to myself how I must have been crazy. I would not have reacted the same way, made the choices and mistakes I did 20 years ago. That's it, 20 years ago, a younger version of ourselves. We make decisions and choices based on our past and present, hopefully looking towards our future. Our circumstances drive us. Whatever the case may be, why should this older, more experienced version of ourselves, look backwards in retrospect and condemn our younger selves?
God knows my two condemn me enough, lay all the blame for their choices on my "poor mothering".
When hubs died, I went through a terrible time of feeling remorseful and guilty for my actions, or inactions. It paralyzed me. I was grieving not only his passing, but what we could have had and didn't, his anger and reclusiveness. He checked out before he passed, and so did I. I was unable to reach him, already grieving over our two, my grands, I was not the person I would have been, if I knew then, what I know now.
That he would die so soon.
There is a lump in my throat as I write that down.
It was not an easy relationship.
But, I did love him.
I condemned myself for not loving him well enough.
It took miles and miles of walking, self reflection and prayer, to start to heal and forgive myself for my reaction. I started to go through the tapes, replaying history and what reverberated through my head was "Leafy, you are human. Imperfect. If God forgives me my mistakes and imperfections, who am I to override that with self flailing, holding on to self resentment over past mistakes and reactions to circumstances out of my control?"
We have no way of knowing and predicting the future, as we eek out our lives in the present. We can only do our best with what we have.
I am sure, Copa, that younger, adventurous person years ago, trekking through Central America with your son, did not intentionally put either of you in danger. You were creating memories, living outside of the box, finding your way.
Geez, there are so many, many things I would change in my past if I could, but it isn't possible.
I found this in one of your older threads, it spoke to me and helped me..........

The reality is that you cannot change what has happened. You cannot restore lives to where they were before the event. However, you can make a difference in the lives of others. You can give back some of what you have taken away by finding a different place to invest your time and compassion. Forgive yourself and let the healing begin!

YES!

Forgiveness is a choice that takes courage and strength, and it gives us the opportunity to become an overcomer rather than remaining a victim of our own scorn.

Our own scorn.......we really, really, really can be our own worst enemy in this.

so now i am filled with the terror i never allowed myself to feel. a lifetime of it.

I don't know Copa, only you know yourself. I see so many good qualities through out your posts. You are too hard on yourself. We do what we can with what we have at the time. I sometimes feel the same way, that I protected myself from truly feeling. I protect myself now, from the hurt of my two, but it is a self preservation. If I allowed myself to sink in to the chasm of despair that I am capable of, I would die.
I would die in the sense that existing in an abyss of misery is not living.
This is a quote from the same thread, Copa and it is brilliant.

The energy it takes to harbor anger, hatred, and resentment towards yourself is exhaustive. Every bit of energy we give to negative activities and dwelling on regrets, robs us of the energy we need to become the person God wants us to be.

'The energy we need to become the person God wants us to be."
Aren't we all, even our d cs, finding our way? We slip, trip and fall, brush ourselves off, and get back up again. Over and over. Life is a continuing series of circumstances, sometimes unfortunate ones. Each time we come through, we have learned something, or not. We may try the same solution, until we understand that it doesn't work, then we try to find another.
It may take a while for us to come through.
Don't judge yourself by your past, you don't live there anymore.
You are here, and feeling now.
I think that as we get older and know a little bit more (hopefully)
looking at the other side of the hill and knowing we don't have that much time anymore, we know life is short, we have tendencies to look back and have so many regrets. On the flip side of this, is the life we were blessed with, how we managed to cope and live as we did.
Try to look at the many, many positives in your life.
We learn from our mistakes.
Move forward to try to live the best rest of our lives.
We are still going to have missteps and mistakes along the way.
We are only human after all.

I hope that it is not too stressful having your son around.

How I know that feeling, the joy of seeing my two, the breath holding for the other shoe to drop.........

Try to breathe and let the moments come as they do.

May Akua be with you.

(((HUGS)))
Leafy

 

[Copabanana]

thank you new leaf! where did you find those older quotes?

i cannot remember writing any of it!

it sounds so detached. new leaf. what thread is this? i need to read it.

there is a paradox in my current thinking/feeling. you see. during the years i did not feel as deeply i functioned. to do so i had to deny and suppress feelings and truths about my life. i kind of liked this.

i felt better, happier. more effective. admired. heck. i admired myself. but i was a fake.

if i could have it back-- this more surfacey life, i fear, i would want it back. because it hurt so much less. because i functioned. i would not let in to my consciousness that which would hobble me.

and then the hobbled me could no longer be denied. five years of this since my mother became ill. i have been defined...i defined myself as hobbled.

my growing faith and way of understanding based on it is the way that i am understanding this all. but i am just a learner and go back in forth in how i feel and know. i still judge myself with old eyes. a younger way of knowing.

when you write of your husband and the compromises you made with yourself to be with him and his pain...it reminds me for some reason of my mother and i.

i never was aware of loving my mother as much as i did as she was dying and after. of course i must have loved her before, the same as after. but i was numb to that too. largely.

because i had to be. she was dangerous for me to love without defenses.

what's that beatles song? (something) hide your love away.

i think sometimes i am still protecting her.

i am so much more in touch with my pain now. (than even then. referring to those old posts) it is hard to imagine writing anything of the sort now. i feel more humble. at least in the face of my own pain and humanity. than even 6 mos ago. a year ago. even.

condemning myself and my younger selves. even one year younger. yes.that is what i am doing.

thank you new leaf.

i have had a wonderful life. it is hard to write that without comparing myself to others with better ??? lives or more...or to the person i could have been if i was not so fully human??? or had not heen so broken as a child. a reality i tried hard to escape. an escaping that i both judge myself for harshly.. .yet long for.

i am by necessity now living from this brokeness.

as you and others are doing i am trying to find strength and wholeness therein.

thank you new leaf.

ps this is sounding like a foo thread. sorry people.

 

[New Leaf]

Copa, it is from a FOO thread you wrote on self forgiveness- 9/12/15.

 

[Copabanana]

thank you new leaf.

it interests me how i foresee territory i will have to traverse way before i do so.

which either makes me prescient or a hypocrite.

by accident i found a post from 8/2/15 which anticipates the need to do the work i am doing with the rabbi fully 14 mos before i knew she existed and before i knew that a fundament of my faith is atonement.

this is giving me hope that i am doing the work of self-forgiveness, with this suffering and self-condemnation.

thank you new leaf. very much.