the ball is in his court??

[Copabanana]

part 2 (i had lost it. here it is)

so. very calmly he pivots.

he says(the gist): i know i need a treatment program. i know i have a substance problem. i know i let myself down and you down. i know you love me and are acting from love. i love you mom.

he called an excellent tx program and spoke to the intake coordinator for an hour who told him he was the ideal candidate and an intellectual.

then he called the admissions coordinator and made an appounment with her to speak by phone on thursday after speaking to her for maybe 15 minutes.

he told me he is considering suspending his ssi temprsrily to make primary my insurance in order to secure admissiin.

we spent 2 hours together and he was nothing but sweet. he listened attentively to my jewish spirituality (i know-)i cannot seem to help myself.).

to be contined. m's home.

 

[Sam3]

Oh my god.

More to follow.

 

[Copabanana]

part 3

and then he called to tell me he had reached out to another treatment program (where he had been before)

okay.

first i recognize that one, i called him as in bluff--my mother was a great poker player. me? horrible.. and i got out of the way..this was poker and martial arts acting in concert.

i told him to leave. indirectly. .that i agreed with him that he deserved autonomy and respect. he deserves compassion and understanding.

and so do i.

that each of us is flawed and trying. and that this is the human condition. and that our commitment to each other is because we are a family and makes us a family, our love and capacitty to grow as people is what familys do. as well as calling each other on our shxt. and that nobody here is made in the shade. not him. me or m.

there was back and forth. not just me pontificating. which i am wont to do. sorry.

i see he was cornered. but i also acknowledge that instead of telling him from a power pisition, making him wrong, i gave him the opportunity and support to choose better and stand up for himself. not against me but within himself..

i do not think there is any sure thing. i feel humble. i am praying.

i lost part 2.

ps i found it.

 

[Littleboylost]

Well done Copa. What and exausting day. Do something to refuel your energy. Be kind and good to yourself.

Keep us posted, we are all here for you.

 

[Copabanana]

part 4

i see each one of us in the same process. diffferent voices. same path. you guys modeled to me how to do this. i could never in 8 million years come to this place (of 30 minutes of relative peace) without you.

i am just so grateful i gave ground after i stood my ground.

Honestly. I do not know what i learned. Except that i don't know. And that has to be okay.

 

[Littleboylost]

part 2 (i had lost it. here it is)

so. very calmly he pivots.

he says(the gist): i know i need a treatment program. i know i have a substance problem. i know i let myself down and you down. i know you love me and are acting from love. i love you mom.

he called beit t'shuvah and spoke to the intake coordinator for an hour who told him he was the ideal candidate and an intellectual.

then he called the admissions coordinator and made an appounment with her to speak by phone on thursday after speaking to her for maybe 15 minutes.

he told me he is considering suspending his ssi temprsrily to make primary my insurance in order to secure admissiin.

we spent 2 hours together and he was nothing but sweet. he listened attentively to my jewish spirituality (i know-)i cannot seem to help myself.).

to be contined. m's home.

Oh my gosh I had to read it twice!!

 

[Littleboylost]

Honestly. I do not know what i learned. Except that i don't know. And that has to be okay.

This brings me Back full circle to where I was this morning. All the questions and no answers. It simply just depends as Jabber put it

It is OK. We are OK. You took on the Poker and martial arts, stood your ground and gave him respect and compassion. It doesn’t get any better than that.

A true warrior mom!

 

[Copabanana]

new leaf. sorry. can't quote on cell.

dealing with the real. as it emerges..

tough to do. i am learning. very slowly.

lbl. yes. we seem to be in the same phase. learning similar lessons. but with different strengths and frailties. thank you for your care, constancy, honesty and support. all of you.

sam. i hear what you are saying. and i agree. let me put context to my choices.

i have for four years mourned my mother. and struggled to forgive myself because i could not accept her fully. i could not and would not tolerate how she treated me. i did not strive to find the voice to speak for myself in relation to her. i was not strong enough. i made distance for many years. (we had a relationship for the last 20 years. largely by phone.) my grief (and my loss) when she died were insurmountable.

my father died 35 years ago. i learned of his death 5 years after the fact. we had no relationship for the 5 years before he died. he was an alcoholic and drug user. i felt trashed and degraded around him. he came to hate me because i made distance. i never was able to speak up for myself with him, either.

nor with my sister who treated me as a non-person.

any strength and confidence i have gained in relationship has been with m in the last 8 years. (and m is not a piece of cake.) and with my son.

so how does this relate to abuse and boundaries to same?

one. i recognize i was abused. i did not, could not have boundaries. i was abandoned by both parents and i abandoned myself. i still do. sometimes.

two. i recognize that the intensity of my reaction and fear with my son is related in part to my past. i forgive myself and i believe he forgives me.

but he deserves voice. and i can give him that. if he has voice then he can decide to temper it and control it. this is something i did not have a chance to do with my parents and stepfather. i turned this voice against myself.

my son has been abusive. not physically (except for the time when he was 17 when he used a defensive martial arts move against me-i had not touched him). but abuse as in manipulation, hostility, control and betrayal.

i call him on it. i have thrown him out over and over again. i have called the cops. maybe a dozen times. or more. i have not spoken to him for months.

but this is the thing. he is changing. i see it. and i am too. this relationship is holding and it is healing. i never had this before in my life. and it came late.

i am committed to him. as each of you are to your children. i believe that people change in relationship. i believe that i need to change as much or more than he does. i believe that i am finding voice i never had through these relationships i have now. with my son and m.

i believe i can find a kind of strength by not reacting to every single thing. by keeping centered in myself. by compassion and listening. i am hugely (yugely) imperfect.

some of you for sure believe this is accepting abuse. i undestand.

i have this practice that i came up with with m. who i have said can be direct. and critical. i imagine myself with physical boundaries a few feet bigger than i really am. i attend to every single thing m says. and hear him. i listen. i try to understand. i no longer try to defend myself. i try to imagine myself big and strong. And autonomous and grown up.

i do not feel abused or passive. i used to. (but to be honest i do think-why take seriously or personally obnoxious behavior that is clearly ridiculous.)

several of you have said the same thing. in relation to our kids. why take seriously drivel and garbage? but i recognize my choices are clearly only those i feel make sense. they come from my values and history. i only ask to not be judged publically or shamed.

bad behavior by others is not about me. if i am abused i need to walk away. or to shut the door. but i can trust myself now. i can evaluate and reevaluate the situation. i can trust myself to have a conversation that is not pretty and i can be open to the possibility that the people i love can seek to become better people in relation to me. as i can be. in relation to them.

this is something i never before had. trust. of myself. or anybody else.

after a lifetime (hopefully i have a lot of time left) i feel and see it is not about me--when people behave badly. it is not my fault. it is about them. let them own it. i do not have to take it on...to catch it. i can let it be.

or i can shut it down. i am no longer a child.

it can just stay suspended in the air. for them to think about, to own. and change. as they wish. now.

i am free now. i can leave each relationship. they know that. both need me as much or more than i need them. but i don't want to leave.i may want to later. i do not want to today. and i don't want my son to leave either. but he can.

i do not have to take irrevocable stands.

i do not know why my son has been mean to me. i can guess it has something to do with our strong attachment and his tough, tough life. and the betrayal by and abandonment by his birth parents.

i do not know why my parents were mean to me.

i spent a lifetime believing i did not deserve better.

i do.

thank you everybody for your honesty. i am so blessed.

ps. kalahou. i so valued your post. you guided me throughout this day and yesterday to let my son have his dignity, autonomy and separate identity. to not so much impose my needs and values. to back off and let him go. imperfectly, i tried. and thank you. lil thank you for reminding me that i was reasonable. and new leaf. your compassion and wisdom are a salve.

this is sounding like the academy awards. and you guys are the winners.

 

[Sam3]

Loving Copa,

I am not judging you. I offered a bird’s eye on your son’s behavior, because I know all of us can lose the forest in the veins, on the leaves of the trees.

I am sorry my comment had bigger implications.

 

[Littleboylost]

but this is the thing. he is changing. i see it. and i am too. this relationship is holding and it is healing. i never had this before in my life. and it came late.

This is a beautiful observation. Detaching with live does not mean having no relationship. It is a relationship on our own terms in a way the sets healthy boundaries. This is a relationship in your terms and to see progress is truly wonderful. All any of us may have is progress and not perfection. Progress in the bond of the relationship without sobriety. It may not be what we want but we take what we can get.

i believe that i need to change as much or more than he does. i believe that i am finding voice i never had through these relationships i have now.

Oh to find that voice and recognize what we need to do to decompress ourselves is so very insightful.

i can trust myself to have a conversation that is not pretty and i can be open to the possibility that the people i love can seek to become better people in relation to me. as i can be. in relation to them.

The difficult conversations are the most challenging. They are indeed not pretty and O stand strong and not get lost in the FOG is a tremendous accomplishment for any of us. I am learning too Copa to step away from the FOG, to listen with compassion and do what my heart can endure with healthy boundaries in place. We are all different and our circumstances are different.

it is not my fault. it is about them. let them own it. i do not have to take it on...to catch it. i can let it be.

To let it be, not to own it, not taking fault or blame; these are exceptions psychological boundaries. Being present and not codependent is something we all work at and strive for.

i don't want to leave.i may want to later. i do not want to today. and i don't want my son to leave either. but he can.

We all do what our hearts can endure, no more no less. What you do is what you can.

Sam
I see no reason for an apology. We are all here in love and support if each other. We take what we need and leave the rest.

I for one now know I have a new question to add to my tool box. Before I get sucked into the swirley Whirly panic and doom ....is it just Tuesday for my son?

Sam How is your mom? I lost both my parents in less than 14 months and have no strong relationship with any of my siblings ( all be it there are 8, a lot of disfunction and unlearning for me).

 

[so ready to live]

Dear Copa. Following along on your journey.
Our sons do have some extra "stuff" don't they? I have learned, in my passive conflict avoiding life, I need to try to be aware of that without overvaluing it. I had an alcoholic father too, although he was present all along and dried out when I was sixteen. My mother died when I was 24. So... we all have "stuff".

That being said, I feel the truth that you and J are both growing.

My circle around myself all these years has been 2 feet wide but somewhat permeable. My emotions and self value very close to the edge and easily nicked by others. Me having a hard time finding a balance between being hurt and yet still feeling at all. It has seemed one or the other. Now I see I can have my circle intact but still love and protect myself. I need to love and protect myself.
Oh my, this is such a raw thread...thank you all for that today. Prayers.

 

[Copabanana]

i sent you an apology sam.. telling you i only value your posts, your insight, humor and guidance.

i took a lot of risks in these posts. it can be too easy sometimes for me or others (not you) to overlook that each others hearts are in their throats...and guts torn snd twisted.

that was a growling of self-protection. not to you. if i had not felt safe to dialog as honestly as i could, i would not have responded the way i did. my response was of trusting you guys. no other thing.

 

[Copabanana]

thank you very much. thank you srtl.

two quick comments.

one. i am well aware that this voice of reason by my son does not mean that the other voices are not there. i am prepared for the other shoe to drop. i am not taking a victory lap. rather. i feel dread and fear.

and i believe that for each of your kids these alternative voices exist too.

i think that our kids feel great shame and guilt.

and i also believe they are trying to stop clinging to our skirts. we are mothers who love strongly and well. this is a hard thing to leave. these kids are blasting their way away. they feel no other way i think.

second. this is to new leaf. about conversation.

my son and i were alone. he was an only child of a single mother. actually i believe he has been jealous and resentful of m. the serious conflict started when m came.

my son and i were really too much. too close. he had to fight his way away. if he can talk to me some now it is a measure of how much he has grown his voice. and i have gotten stronger. less dependent on him. oh this is not a pretty picture. of me. but you know that about me already. boy oh boy. has this been painful.

your girls were in a bevy of kids. there was not the same opportunity to have solitary conversatiion. in some ways that is a good thing.

father as i recall was indulgent. you it seems had to take responsibility for boundaries.

i know the longing there is.

they will seek you out. i believe the yearning for you will wake up in them.. it is there but they are not listening. it is easier to push it away. for now. than to feel.

that is what happened with me. with my mother who did not have your strengths. you know how that worked out.

your girls are young. you are too. in your posts i hear a mellowing. of your girls. you are opening. slowly. surely. with strength. from strength.

there is time.

by doing what we do--prayer, walks, growing wisdom, self-care, self-contained living, we become irresistable.

 

[Lil]

Copa,

This is so hard...all of the things we parents of difficult children go thru, is SO hard. We all are doing the best we can with what we are given. As many have said to me in the past, when they gave me advice, take what is useful...leave the rest.

I pray your son follows thru with his plan to get into a rehab and work on his issues. I pray you and he can find middle ground where you both find peace and acceptance and love.

 

[New Leaf]

what a brillant lyric. do you think there is a near universality in it

I think “Hey, you’ve got to hide your love away” can be interpreted in many different ways, cultures and situations.
Today, I look at it as “guard your heart”.
"The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?"
Thats from the Bible.
Not that I am imposing religion on anyone, guys, I am not a church goer, but I do believe there is a higher power, whatever anyone wants to call it. And, yes, we were made to be spiritual beings.

I think our hearts can desire something so badly, we can become a slave to it.
Love.
We love our d c's with all our heart,
they don't do well,
we slide down the rabbit hole with them in our own way.
Desperation.

If we could just breathe.
Not base our lives on expectations for others, our d cs included.

So simple, and yet so difficult at the same time.

i believe i can find a kind of strength by not reacting to every single thing. by keeping centered in myself. by compassion and listening. i am hugely (yugely) imperfect.

We are all hugely imperfect. Keeping centered, mindfulness. Not being easily offended, not taking things personally.
I think this is a good formula for walking through life.
Everyone is imperfect, we say and do things we don't mean.
I think once we find our footing with ourselves, stay grounded, we can achieve much. Maybe even peace and joy, despite what our beloveds are doing? Not doing?

some of you for sure believe this is accepting abuse. i undestand.

I don't think it is accepting abuse, I think it is a realistic view that people are people. That they are not necessarily attacking you, they are reacting to their own history and circumstances. But, there are lines to be drawn and boundaries.

Copa, you have been through so much in the last few days. I am glad you and your son were able to speak with one another and you feel some peace of mind.

Well, I guess you can give him props for telling you the truth?

I wanted to clarify this, it is not that you were being abusive by giving your son terms, but that he was able to tell you the truth of how he feels about it.

So many times my two have said what they know I want to hear.
Abracadabra.

It is a pivot point, I believe, when our d cs can say, "This is who I am." Then, they have to look at it and think, "IS this who I am?"

I am babbling, sorry.

I hope your son will follow through with his word to get help.

Prayers going up.

From your post, I know whether he does, or doesn't you will be okay. I see you coming through this, stronger and stronger.

Sometimes, what we want the most, happens when we stop wanting it so desperately.

Do you think that when we are deep in it, that we take on the burden of it? In the sense that we carry the load and baggage of it all, so our d cs don't feel it themselves?

I wonder about that. I think intent, thoughts and feelings have power that reaches beyond our own selves.
We are so connected universally to each other, especially our loved ones.

Have we carried the load of misery and desperation for our d cs, by sliding down with them?

As we lift ourselves up, will it help them to see a way out for themselves?

Is that what Viktor Frankl was teaching us, when he spoke of being idealists? Crabbing? Raising the bar, knowing that our d cs have it in them to reach their full potential? Having faith that they will?

If we can reach peace and joy, are we projecting that for our beloveds?

Much to ponder.

Off to work guys.

Have an awesome day Copa and everyone.

Breathe.

(((HUGS)))
Leafy

 

[New Leaf]

second. this is to new leaf. about conversation.

Just saw this, we must have been posting at the same time. Thank you Copa, I will respond later, off to work!

Aloha,
Leafy

 

[Sam3]

Sam How is your mom? I lost both my parents in less than 14 months and have no strong relationship with any of my siblings ( all be it there are 8, a lot of disfunction and unlearning for me).

Thank you for asking.

She is strong again — with another chink and a little more rust on her armor — an 88 year old veteran of many battles with, for and alongside her own family. And maybe because of that she exudes a deep sense of peace.

I’m sorry you lost your parents that way. My father with whom I was very close fought a terminal illness for many years. I don’t think there’s any good way, but together like that must have been so hard.

A colleague shared with me that her 94 year old mother in law, who for many years left home only for doctors visits, showed up with her nurse at her granddaughters wedding and reception, to everyone’s great surprise. She danced
the night away in her wheelchair with four generations of her family. Went home that night and died in her sleep

That’s a good way.

 

[Copabanana]

poetry, sam. do you feel you are like like her, your mother?

when i get back home i will write this down. does she live close to you?

 

[Sam3]

poetry, sam. do you feel you are like like her, your mother?

Meaning do I have a deep sense of peace?

I have seeds of it germinating.

I helped care for my father. He was in bed for four years. My mom was a little bitty thing and he never got a bedsore. In the end stages, it was an all hands effort so he could live his remaining days at home. From that, there is a seed.

There is a seed from being my moms caregiver for the last 10 years, since her stroke. She resumed many of her daily incidents of life after the first year, but she can’t speak, so I am her voice.

For these things, yes, I think I’ve sewed a sense of peace. Obviously, the efforts were never going to save my dad or restore my mom’s abilities and voice. But I do have an appreciation of life and of what I am made of.

I know our efforts for our children are the exact same stuff. It’s just hard to feel our seed germinating when we are praying for them to blossom.

 

[Copabanana]

actually i meant if you are like her in that you are a fighter--for, against, along side of family.

clearly. i think you are a stalwart. do you?

ps

wow you have had a heavy load.

i tried to take care of my mom too. her last year. in her home in valley village and then in mine north. i had a hard time.