the ball is in his court??

[Copabanana]

new leaf!! the reason i did not remember writing those posts is because i didn't.

i lifted it from somewhere without attribution because it spoke to me as i was mourning my mother at the 2 year mark.

it was good to reread. not done yet. because that was the point we began posting about joseph. (biblical joseph.)

while i remembered we had gone on and on about joseph i had not rembered why.

thank you new leaf.

 

[Sam3]

If you’re ever down in SoCal, Copa, there’s an amazing temple called — Beit T'Shuvah in Culver City. They have inpatient and outpatient services, but the entire congregation seems to be connected with the recovery community, including many Alanon parents.

Ive been to Mitzvahs and other events there with friends. It’s full of warmth and support (and makes me wish I was Jewish.)

 

[Copabanana]

sam. i know beit t'shuvah. in fact as my trust is written they get my money, second in line to my son.

but i have never been there.

thank you for bringing this up. because it may be time for a visit.

i did not know that they embraced parents too.

do you know the rabbi is a convicted felon? a multi-termer? isn't that amazing?

i hear shabbat is wonderful.

 

[Sam3]

I have heard about the rabbi and his past. He’s written an autobiography which I have been meaning to read. He and his wife seem to have built something very precious and unique. I am told many residents there are ex-cons, who served time for drug related offenses. I would think many have dual diagnoses.

 

[Copabanana]

i just went back to the website after a few years. they have started a separate institute, ebi, to train religious and medical professionals in their spiritual recovery model in immersion courses. i will apply! thank you sam.

 

[Sam3]

That sounds like a meaningful use of your well-meaning.

 

[Littleboylost]

Copa
I know you are having trouble reading my posts and I hope that gets fixed very soon.

M needs to learn the three Cs of addiction. You are clear of thought and out of the FOG. You are doing what you can do and that is all you simply CAN do. There is no easy button here. Does M suggest what that something is??

He is your son and you love him. If love could fix this none of us would be here.

Be strong and know we are right here with you.

 

[New Leaf]

my growing faith and way of understanding based on it is the way that i am understanding this all. but i am just a learner and go back in forth in how i feel and know. i still judge myself with old eyes. a younger way of knowing.

I think we all go back and forth rerunning the tapes of our past to try and get a grasp of who we are, what identifies us. Life is a growing experience, never ending possibilities and challenges. The past teaches lessons, but I think when we hang on to the negative baggage of it, it can bog us down. The past is a good place to visit, but I don't want to live there. I think if we can let go the painful parts, certainly examine them to understand why we are the way we are, what we did to overcome obstacles, mistakes, failures and triumphs, that is growth. But, if we dwell there, we are stuck. It is okay to be stuck, maybe it means there is still something to learn? But stuck too long. No good. I am thinking now that going over and over what was, which we have absolutely no control over, what was, prevents us from us from fully enjoying what is and what could be. Life is just too short for that.

because i had to be. she was dangerous for me to love without defenses.

I think this can be true for a lot of relationships, some more than others. Its that imperfect human thing. What is the saying "We always hurt the ones we love". I just googled it, and there are many articles about that. Is it that a blood, or marital relationship gives leeway to hurt? For some? That is a whole nother thread, for sure. That you had to guard your heart and feelings, due to your experiences, can't be blamed, we all have to find ways to protect ourselves.

what's that beatles song? (something) hide your love away.

i think sometimes i am still protecting her

I think I may understand this, Copa. It is the same for my husband. Protecting him, remembering the good times. Of course after a 35 year marriage there were difficult times, "for better or worse".
I am trying to focus on the better.
Like getting rid of clutter.
Past hurts and emotional clutter.
I am decluttering, emotionally, mentally and physically.
Now, trying to rid my house of clutter and unnecessary items.
I have too much stuff.
It is starting to weigh me down, like baggage of the past.
I was hanging on to some of his things, just couldn't donate or dump them, but, I have no use for them. I had to tell myself that they are just things, I am not throwing him away, or an essence of him. I now see it as getting rid of excess baggage, the hard times we went through, the hurtful things, etc. I don't know if I am making any sense here, and yes, it is sounding like a FOO thread, but, I think that in order to withstand the onslaught of our d cs choices, we need to examine ourselves and develop a stronger sense of who we are.
Throw away the negative clutter in our minds and concentrate on the positive.

It is, after all, what we would wish for our d cs, that they examine themselves and learn to make better choices.
I think that is the gist of life.

condemning myself and my younger selves. even one year younger. yes.that is what i am doing.

I think we all do it. How many times in a day to we use loathing self talk? Do something silly, or trip, or forget something in a room. Do we nurture ourselves with positive inner speech, or call ourselves names- idiot, stupid, old. I catch myself doing that a lot. We have to stop it.

i have had a wonderful life. it is hard to write that without comparing myself to others with better ??? lives or more...or to the person i could have been if i was not so fully human??? or had not been so broken as a child. a reality i tried hard to escape. an escaping that i both judge myself for harshly.. .yet long for.

How could any of us not be so fully human? It is what we are. Instead of "broken as a child", I see you as coming out of some very difficult experiences, living, learning and loving. You adopted a child that many people would not find it in their hearts capable to care for.
How you coped with your harsh past is what you had to do at the time. You may review the tapes and say that you could have done better with your life, but it is done, out of your hands.
What you do with your life now, is what matters.

i am by necessity now living from this brokeness.

I don't see you as broken, Copa. I see you as someone who has lived through some very difficult experiences, journeying through life, growing, changing, learning. With all you have gone through, done, accomplished, what an amazing thing, that you would come through the fire of it.
Sure, derailed at times, but don't we all go off the deep end here and there?
Does the deep pain of dealing with our d cs, dredge up the sludge of our lives and cause us to review everything? I think so. It did, and does, for me. It touches me in scarred areas that I have worked hard to build a callous.

i mean i was kind of living a false life. when i started feeling it was like a deluge.

This strikes me Copa. "Living a false life" . Is that like "fake it till you make it?"
If I am off here, please correct me.
Is it more that you were searching for your meaning? Coming out of a difficult childhood, rather than a nurturing environment, is it a natural reaction to protect ourselves from feeling too much, to be able to cope? That you were able to accomplish as much as you did, is amazing to me, Copa.
Not false, it took courage.

When hubs passed, I went through and am going through so many, many different phases and emotions. I still have to get up and go to work. Sometimes, I am going through the motions. I would rather curl up in a ball, lie in bed and contemplate my existence. But, I can't. Responsibility prevents.
I really want to shout at the top of my lungs how much it hurts.
How much it hurts to have two adult children going off the rails.
How much it hurts to lose someone in death, that I feel I have unfinished business with.

But, I have to stuff that down and live, work.
When I am able to sit with my thoughts and work through them, I do. But, it is not always a convenient time when the emotions hit. When the callous rips off.
Then, I have to fake it till I make it.
Some days are harder than others, and I can't wear those feelings.
I think it was Cedar who said if only there was an armband or an emblem we could wear to represent what is going on inside of us.

by accident i found a post from 8/2/15 which anticipates the need to do the work i am doing with the rabbi fully 14 mos before i knew she existed and before i knew that a fundament of my faith is atonement.

Atonement. A reconciliation between God and man. In the old testament, it was a sacrifice that brought atonement.
But, not a sacrifice of self.

I believe that man was created with an innate need for spirituality.

this is giving me hope that i am doing the work of self-forgiveness, with this suffering and self-condemnation.

I think you are working towards self forgiveness. Please don't linger in suffering and self condemnation. We weren't meant to. I really believe that.
We were born with a conscience to guide us to do better, not to scathe ourselves.
That's self defeating.
There has to be a balance.
I am writing to myself, as much as to you, Copa.
Thank you very much for this discussion.
It helped me today.
(((HUGS)))
Leafy

 

[Littleboylost]

I think we all go back and forth rerunning the tapes of our past to try and get a grasp of who we are, what identifies us. Life is a growing experience, never ending possibilities and challenges. The past teaches lessons, but I think when we hang on to the negative baggage of it, it can bog us down. The past is a good place to visit, but I don't want to live there. I think if we can let go the painful parts, certainly examine them to understand why we are the way we are, what we did to overcome obstacles, mistakes, failures and triumphs, that is growth. But, if we dwell there, we are stuck. It is okay to be stuck, maybe it means there is still something to learn? But stuck too long. No good. I am thinking now that going over and over what was, which we have absolutely no control over, what was, prevents us from us from fully enjoying what is and what could be. Life is just too short for that.


I think this can be true for a lot of relationships, some more than others. Its that imperfect human thing. What is the saying "We always hurt the ones we love". I just googled it, and there are many articles about that. Is it that a blood, or marital relationship gives leeway to hurt? For some? That is a whole nother thread, for sure. That you had to guard your heart and feelings, due to your experiences, can't be blamed, we all have to find ways to protect ourselves.

I think I may understand this, Copa. It is the same for my husband. Protecting him, remembering the good times. Of course after a 35 year marriage there were difficult times, "for better or worse".
I am trying to focus on the better.
Like getting rid of clutter.
Past hurts and emotional clutter.
I am decluttering, emotionally, mentally and physically.
Now, trying to rid my house of clutter and unnecessary items.
I have too much stuff.
It is starting to weigh me down, like baggage of the past.
I was hanging on to some of his things, just couldn't donate or dump them, but, I have no use for them. I had to tell myself that they are just things, I am not throwing him away, or an essence of him. I now see it as getting rid of excess baggage, the hard times we went through, the hurtful things, etc. I don't know if I am making any sense here, and yes, it is sounding like a FOO thread, but, I think that in order to withstand the onslaught of our d cs choices, we need to examine ourselves and develop a stronger sense of who we are.
Throw away the negative clutter in our minds and concentrate on the positive.

It is, after all, what we would wish for our d cs, that they examine themselves and learn to make better choices.
I think that is the gist of life.

I think we all do it. How many times in a day to we use loathing self talk? Do something silly, or trip, or forget something in a room. Do we nurture ourselves with positive inner speech, or call ourselves names- idiot, stupid, old. I catch myself doing that a lot. We have to stop it.

How could any of us not be so fully human? It is what we are. Instead of "broken as a child", I see you as coming out of some very difficult experiences, living, learning and loving. You adopted a child that many people would not find it in their hearts capable to care for.
How you coped with your harsh past is what you had to do at the time. You may review the tapes and say that you could have done better with your life, but it is done, out of your hands.
What you do with your life now, is what matters.

I don't see you as broken, Copa. I see you as someone who has lived through some very difficult experiences, journeying through life, growing, changing, learning. With all you have gone through, done, accomplished, what an amazing thing, that you would come through the fire of it.
Sure, derailed at times, but don't we all go off the deep end here and there?
Does the deep pain of dealing with our d cs, dredge up the sludge of our lives and cause us to review everything? I think so. It did, and does, for me. It touches me in scarred areas that I have worked hard to build a callous.
This strikes me Copa. "Living a false life" . Is that like "fake it till you make it?"
If I am off here, please correct me.
Is it more that you were searching for your meaning? Coming out of a difficult childhood, rather than a nurturing environment, is it a natural reaction to protect ourselves from feeling too much, to be able to cope? That you were able to accomplish as much as you did, is amazing to me, Copa.
Not false, it took courage.

When hubs passed, I went through and am going through so many, many different phases and emotions. I still have to get up and go to work. Sometimes, I am going through the motions. I would rather curl up in a ball, lie in bed and contemplate my existence. But, I can't. Responsibility prevents.
I really want to shout at the top of my lungs how much it hurts.
How much it hurts to have two adult children going off the rails.
How much it hurts to lose someone in death, that I feel I have unfinished business with.

But, I have to stuff that down and live, work.
When I am able to sit with my thoughts and work through them, I do. But, it is not always a convenient time when the emotions hit. When the callous rips off.
Then, I have to fake it till I make it.
Some days are harder than others, and I can't wear those feelings.
I think it was Cedar who said if only there was an armband or an emblem we could wear to represent what is going on inside of us.

Atonement. A reconciliation between God and man. In the old testament, it was a sacrifice that brought atonement.
But, not a sacrifice of self.

I believe that man was created with an innate need for spirituality.
I think you are working towards self forgiveness. Please don't linger in suffering and self condemnation. We weren't meant to. I really believe that.
We were born with a conscience to guide us to do better, not to scathe ourselves.
That's self defeating.
There has to be a balance.
I am writing to myself, as much as to you, Copa.
Thank you very much for this discussion.
It helped me today.
(((HUGS)))
Leafy

This thread has made me weap, it has made me very reflective and made me know I must carry forward.
"Fake it till you make it". Some times when we push our selves into a positive routine on a physical level the mind does follow.
There are times where I feel it is ok to curl into a ball and hide away from the world and all it's pain. This time is self healing to a degree, and yes Leafy I agree we must not dwell there. We must recharge and rejuvenate and push forward. Leading the example for our DCs to observe.
Spiruality is something I have struggled with and I agree Leafy, we do need to pursue and embrace spirituality. I no longer follow my catholic faith. I do have a highly spiritual need and try to sustain this as it buoys me through the difficult times.
We have all met in this tender zone where we are all faced with the inability to change what we so desperately would give anything to change for our DCs.

It is ours to behold and embrace, it is not ours to own or control.

If the lesson is to love and let go, I am still learning how to do this. Praying for the strength to continue on this path right along with all of you.

I do not know why my beautiful boy struggles the way he does. I do not know why I have been given this challenging lesson in life.

Bad happens to good people all the time. I am not immune to this, I am not unique, I am not special. This is life. How well or poorly I live my role in this life is what I need to focus on.

Thank you Copa and Leafy. I feel I have the strength today to move forward in a positive way for myself, and to stop dwelling in worry and sadness for my son.

I am glad to have this forum. I am in a class today, monitoring and not teaching. This has helped stop my mind from wandering into dark places.

 

[Copabanana]

yeah new leaf. fake it til i make it. i like that better.

thank you for that.

you've got to hide your love away.

yes.

what a brillant lyric. do you think there is a near universality in this, at least in western cultures?

thank you new leaf.

 

[Copabanana]

my son expresses i am being abusive by my boundaries which are: drug free in my property and productive. we have also requested he be out of the other house during the workday (because we have one or two workers and it would not be good for their morale to have him around doing nothing.)

i did not stipulate he go into treatment. i only suggested he consider it because he for sure will be out if he tests dirty next tuesday. the balls to use drugs the day before he came home, knowing where we stood. he believes he calls the shots. and that is how he treats me.

i do not believe in rock bottom. i do not want him homeless or to suffer. but i do not want to enable him either.

he has the wherewithall to go to voc rehab.

he has the wherewithall to get treatment.

he has the wherewithall to go to na.

he can go to a class.

he can volunteer at the zoo or senior citizens or boys club.

he can join a gym for 10 dollars a mo, no deposit.

am i wrong?

i clearly cannot stop nor should i stop his mj use--as long as he is independent of me.

 

[Littleboylost]

Hi Copa;

You are well within your rights to set your boundaries. You son is well within his rights to accept them or move along.

You are correct it is not your job to control his MJ habit.

I am thinking of you.

 

[BusynMember]

He is addicted. He can not just quit. And he has the common younger mindset that pot is not bad.
They dont see how it harms their motivation and function. I am sorry.

 

[Kalahou]

he has the wherewithall to go to voc rehab.
he has the wherewithall to get treatment.
he has the wherewithall to go to na.
he can go to a class.
he can volunteer at the zoo or senior citizens or boys club.
he can join a gym for 10 dollars a mo, no deposit.
am i wrong?

Of course he has the wherewithall, but it obviously appears he does NOT WANT to do any of it at this time / or ever maybe.

From several things I've seen in your posts, I also feel he has the wherewithall to figure out things for himself when he's away and on his own. He was a bit down and out, but "getting it done." - just not your way. And when you express your fears and anxieties to him, he of course feels he is cannot make it on his own, so showed up back home, as you wanted all along.

it's hard. you see. i wanted him to come home. i guess.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i do not believe in rock bottom. i do not want him homeless or to suffer. but i do not want to enable him either.

You don't want him to suffer and you want him to come home, but you don't want to enable.
But then you don't like who he is when he is home and "not homeless".
He is a man, and he does want to call the shots in his life, and he should ~ on the other hand you don't like his shots, but you want him to be home (on your terms since it is your house).
Our "fretting" usually springs from a determination to get our own way. That is not going to happen. He is a different person with a different way, with his own soul and his own (different) yearning for his life, as he desires.

It is hard for sure to let go, to "let him be". I see my own son out and about at times, and find it hard to "let him be", ( yet love still as a son) ~ But for me, it is a lot easier to see him in "lean times" - seeing him realize himself that he has to struggle and even get hurt, than it would be for me to be the one "dying" little by little and struggling, if he was home and ALL the ugliness that goes with that.

We are all learning here together. The hard truths are not easy, we know. But we are going to be alright ... day by day.

 

[Lil]

I assume he knew there would be boundaries when you made him the offer to come back; that you didn't just say, "Come home and live here until you have your act together" and nothing more.

He knew it would be for a limited amount of time.

My suggestion would be to give him a limited amount of time to kind of "relax" and think. "You have ___ weeks to make a plan on what you are going to do. You can (1) stay here under the conditions you knew would be imposed - no drugs and do something productive, be that work, classes, whatever, or (2) you can move on. If at the end of ___ weeks, you are being productive and staying away from the pot, then we'll see if you want to stay longer. If you aren't - you best have chosen option 2 and made a plan, because you'll have to go. Under either option, you will NOT bring drugs into this house." Really, I don't know that I'd make him test. Pot especially lasts a long time in the system doesn't it? How will you know that he's not testing positive from the time he was gone? But that's me.

I guess what I'm saying is maybe give him a week or two to get his act together and make his choice. He knew he couldn't just come back and do whatever he wanted, right?

 

[New Leaf]

my son expresses i am being abusive by my boundaries which are: drug free in my property and productive.

Huh. Interesting. Well, I guess you can give him props for telling you the truth?
No pretenses.
This is who I am.
When I was in what I refer to as the "revolving door phase" the kids would do okay for a time, then by their actions, "This is who I am" came across loud and clear.
At our expense, but really, more at their own, my grands.
A heavy dose of "It is what it is."

the balls to use drugs the day before he came home, knowing where we stood. he believes he calls the shots. and that is how he treats me.

I don't know if they look at it as treatment, or mistreatment, or is it an adult child saying this is how I will live?
Will.
It's a big thing.
Really, out of our control.
The will to choose.

i do not believe in rock bottom. i do not want him homeless or to suffer. but i do not want to enable him either.

It's a quagmire. This rock bottom thing. I guess it is an individual tolerance. Surely, I thought many times for my two, that they had hit rock bottom.
According to my vision of rock bottom, they have gone beyond.
They have a high tolerance for poor living conditions.
It is mind boggling to me.

he has the wherewithall

I think he does. He just doesn't choose it, yet. If only love and guidance and hope could save, and change our d cs situations for them. But, will and freedom of choice gets in the way.
He will do as he chooses, as will you.
It does not mean the end of the story is written and he will continue to choose as he does.
You have made so many generous and gracious offers for your son, Copa.
If that is what you choose, that is your choice, and it is okay.
We all have to do, what we have to do.

am i wrong?

You are not wrong, Copa. How we struggle with all of this, it is never what we foresaw when the kids were young.

i clearly cannot stop nor should i stop his mj use--as long as he is independent of me.

Will. There it is again.
You have laid down your terms, he, his.
I cannot fathom how anyone would choose homelessness over an opportunity to live in a home.
It is my Rains choice.
On my walk today, I had to ask forgiveness because I was mulling over the connection you have with your son. Inner thoughts turned to "All I have is prayer."
It is what it is.
But, prayer is a powerful, powerful thing.
I guess that's what it means to let go and let God.
Have faith that things will work themselves out in their own time.
At least I have the breath in me to pray.
The rest, really is up to my two.
Because they will do what they want to do, regardless of what I would wish, or choose for them.
Still I pray, because I have done about everything in my power to try to help, to no avail.
I am comforted with prayer.

I leave you with this quote and my hopes for you to be at peace with whatever this turns out to be.
It is a quote my father carried with him, from the philosopher Epictetus

"Seek not to have things happen as you choose, but rather, that they should happen as they do, and you shall live prosperously."

(((HUGS)))
Leafy

 

[Littleboylost]

It's a quagmire. This rock bottom thing. I guess it is an individual tolerance. Surely, I thought many times for my two, that they had hit rock bottom.
According to my vision of rock bottom, they have gone beyond.
They have a high tolerance for poor living conditions.
It is mind boggling to me.

I am boggled right along with you. I have seen and been dragged through Rock Bottom and AS is unscathed. I missed the vaccine he got to build this type of immunity.

He will do as he chooses, as will you.
It does not mean the end of the story is written and he will continue to choose as he does.

I am holding fast to this thought today Leafy.

Will. There it is again.
You have laid down your terms, he, his.
I cannot fathom how anyone would choose homelessness over an opportunity to live in a home.

Again so so with you on this.

[QUOTE="New Leaf, post: 723079, member: thought many times for my two, that they had hit rock bottom.

Seek not to have things happen as you choose, but rather, that they should happen as they do, and you shall live prosperously[/QUOTE]

Man this is a great statement. A tough one to live by.

 

[Littleboylost]

This is who I am.
When I was in what I refer to as the "revolving door phase" the kids would do okay for a time, then by their actions, "This is who I am" came across loud and clear.
At our expense, but really, more at their own, my grands.
A heavy dose of "It is what it is."

Well Copa and Leafy if there is a phase, Copa I think we are in it, in the thick of it. And yes today it is what it is. He is the grand master of his story. What is written in the past is not always what will repeat in chapters to come.

I pray for change, and now I also pray for acceptance and understanding. Where there is life there is hope. It is what it is.

 

[Sam3]

You posted this on LBLs thread

and? i beg him to stay. he calls the shots. this morning i woke at 6 to a text saying more or less that i will suffer (and deserve to) more than i could ever imagine. and that he was leaving. because we were abusive. that i behave like a monster. that his friend (who has not seen me in a decade and around whom i have behaved like queen elizabeth) says so too.

and what did i do? go and beg him to not leave.

First of all, garbage in garbage out.

But mostly, the revenge leaving.

Hypothetically, if a boyfriend said this to your daughter, and she wanted to beg him not to leave, you could see that for what it is. The product of emotional abuse.

I realize it is more complicated when there’s more at stake than feared abandonment, that you feel your proximity can keep him safe. But at what cost? Will he be able to have healthy relationships in the real world acting like this with his mother?

 

[Copabanana]

i am learning so much on this thread. from each of you.

okay.

he came over. unexpectedly. this morning. long morning which started with the monster mash when i drove over to where he is staying at 6 am.

so he comes over. more monster mash and that he s leaving because i am so impissible and intolerable.

i say something like this: you know i agree with you. i agree that have been acting controlling and hysterical. i could say that it is because i am so afraid and because i love you so much, i react due to my sense of powerlessness. it is true m and i wanted you to cime back. that was self-serving. and wrong. you deserve independence. (more or less that.)

i know you are a grown man and the way i am behaving feels impossible. and wrong.

i could say that you bear some responsibility. That you made choices too. that you came back here knowing that you let down yourself and us. but i won't.

i will just tell you i see your point of view one hundred percent.

i respect how you endured really hard conditions. and how you have grown in wisdom and control. i know you have to leave and i respect that.

end of part 1